Forum: Racing From The Past (go)
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Warren, I completely understand, everybody has a class and is a common thing in Sprint Car Classes this day and time that Me/I mentatlity for series and promoters ALL OVER the country .

Your right back in the 70's it was Super Modifieds and 6 Cyl. Modifieds and that was it in open wheel around here.

You are right on that looking down theory in anything below a 360, every driver wants to go fast and everyone wants to see the fastest , racing/passing just seems to come with it IF it happens and then they gripe about not seeing any racing/passing because they are so locked down and yep going fast as well.

This non wing E Sprint class can be a great thing and a class that grows but 3 things have to happen or they will become just like the Champ Sprint 2 Barrels have become in costs.

1. Rules HAVE to stay the same for a LONG period of time. NO CHANGES!!!!

2. The rules have to be teched/checked to keep all who run the class in line with the rules. OFTEN!!!!

3. The promoters need to pay a bit more money than what the class pays now $50 to start and $200 to win is just not enough to help the class grow, got to make it enough that at least you get your way to and from the track paid for. The rest is just racing costs to race, tires , oil ,parts etc. ya just have to live with that, people say you raise the purse and then costs will go up , not if you KEEP THE RULES THE SAME and TECH THE RULES.

Anyway I am seriously looking at building a car for this class in the future, The Champ Sprints were once a class a working guy could afford $4,000 for a good competitive motor and now $15,000 motors and up are the norm and what it takes to run up front , not win but just to run up front. Winning it takes LUCK and SKILL and all the other stuff required in the $$$ end of it as well. The wings have em locked down so much now and it is tough to pass and especially on the bigger tracks, so that is where that LUCK comes in , ya draw good and it helps ya and ya know your gonna have a better night than ya would have drawing in the back and you talked about Tires, well in the winged champ sprint deal ya better be able to bolt on at least 2 Rears for a night at most places to be competitive as well.

I hear people tell me today well you run that low paying class and ya tear up and cost the same to fix it as it does if ya run Champ Sprints or 305's , ASCS 360 or 410 WoO, yes they are correct but those after mentioned classes also require high dollar motors from $15,000 Champ Sprint/305 all the way up to a 410 which I heard that the winnning motor at Knoxville Nat. this past Aug. cost $53,500 to build. Heard that from a guy who knows the Crew Chief Brian Kemenah on the CH Motorsports 83 car that Tim Shaffer won with and ya better bolt on new rubber to run up front which can run you from $500 to over a $1,000 a race depending on how many corners you put new rubber on.

Also folks tell me well if you run wingless and you will destroy a frame/car, heck I have had drivers do that with a wing as well , had it happen to me in 2007 in a crash and have seen it numerous times over the years.

Racing is expensive , I am well aware of that and I usually run the lower tier classes of Sprint Cars and have had a blast doin it for 23 yrs. now and well still like to do it and I am just trying find an venue that I can afford and still keep doing it and this Wingless E Sprint deal looks appealing to me. Now whether it works out remains to be seen, but can tell you that this owner has done Champ Sprint thing now since they came in and replaced the 100" cars back in the late 90's and well they have opened the rules up more and more and well now they are out of hand , went from Stock Blocks, Stock Cranks and Rods and Solid Cams to now Aftermarket Blocks, lightweight Cranks and Rods and Alum. Heads and Roller Cams and the list goes on, about the ONLY thing that has stayed the same is the Carb. it has remained a 2 Bar. and the rules are not even the same on them from tracks and series.

Sorry to go on about it , will stop and let it go. Guess I just got fired up on the subject. J.D.

I like the idea Ed has out at Dodge. 305's and no wings. Pretty much what thrilled us back in the day.

Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes

There is nothing wrong with the non wing 305 cars, it just seems they have never have taken off here in Okla. , they are pretty big in the Texas area SST of Smiley Sittons and now some metro area tracks around Dallas/Ft. Worth are running them weekly and I know they are going well in Ks. as well, I think with all the 2 Bar. Carbs in this state and with OCRS and BMS and Lawton and Creek running a 2 Bar. type class and now BMS running a 2 Bar. Sport Mod Motor E Sprint class , just makes for lots of 2 Bar. Carbs around, just think it would be tough to get those 305 injected in here right now and try and start them up, but again there is nothing wrong with the 305's and from what I heard they run with the E Sprints at Enid on Sunday night and I guess they had about 9 of them.

I'm pretty sure that Larry Hathaway had a welding shop in Walters back in the 70s.....maybe before and during the time that he was the flag man at the Lawton Speedway. I ran into Larry.....probably 6-8 months ago. We visited for a little while and I think that his grandkids are involved in some kind of racing, but I don't remember all the particulars. I think that Jackie Whiteman flagged before my days at the Lawton Speedway.....I know Jackie but haven't seen him in years....he's a good man. I used to race mini-sprints with his son, Jackie, back in the late 80s and into the 90's, until he got hurt in a bad flip at either the Faxon Speedway or at Fort Cobb Speedway (also known as Dutten Speedway)...can't remember which. I had some of those bad flips....but was just luckier and didn't get hurt. I think that Jr., Johnnie, and Randall, along with A.J. Little all worked at Sears through out the 70's. Sears moved to the Central Mall in October of 1979....and I think most of those drivers moved with them. As far as favorite drivers.....I had lots of favorites though the years. See you October 16th. Ken

Ken,

Yes Larry Hathaway did have the welding shop when he was flagging. He also had a neat little 1930 Model A Ford five window coupe It was red, do you remember the car. I give all the credit to him and Lupi and the rest of the guys who were the flagmen in those early days from what little protection they had on that little flagstand. I know you know what I'm talking about looking at that flagstand compaired to the current flagstand at Lawton. We have a good friend in common in Alan. Can't wait till our reunion so we sure can talk about those great days at Lawton and Wichita Falls.

Mike

Several other track officials were Sid Langley who use to work the back stretch up until several years ago, I know he did that forever it seemed and what happened to Sheila Samples and Mr. McKay did'nt you have another announcer before Sheila that announced the Modifieds and Hobby Stocks back in the mid 70's???.

Don Luke was the head scorer out there for a long time and also was the sports editor of the Lawton Constitution and guess that got the track more publicity in the paper back then or at least I bet it helped.

I seen Lupi about a month ago in the pit area when we were running over at Lawton, guy still looks like he could step up on flagstand and get the job done with no problem.

One thing I can say that has stayed the same since then is Raymond the Flagman, I thought I remembered him flagging or (helping out flagging) back then. He still shows up on Saturdays and does it to this day. Not real sure if he has did it consistently since the 70's???.

Also remember Landers old Big Red Wrecker along with that black top white bottom Ambulance that sat out in the infield every Sat. night back then but then as I got older I really started to wonder if that Ambulance really would start. I don't think I seen it move very often.

Your right Mike on tough flagman, heck I remember when they finally put up a clear piece of plexi glass for the flagman to have some protection from the flying rocks and Lawton is full of em, can attest to that with the body on my Sprinter this year, ran 3 times at the place and looks like a 100 pellet guns set on rapid fire hit it. Had to be tough back then and even with that small piece of plexi glass to flag at Lawton.

Raymond came in from what i remember to be 1988.(?) If he had been there before, 1988 was his comeback.

Ken and JD,

This is good stuff, Mr. Landers had both the ambulance an that ole red Mack wrecker which is still alive, It rests in Stan Landers salvage yard. There were two ambulances, both black and white. The first one was a 1958 Chevrolet station wagon and later they had I don't know the year but it was a Caddy. Ken do you remember interviewing Harold Leep in the KSWO mobile unit before the 1973 NCRA races here at Lawton. Remember in 1972 when Harold Leep won the NCRA feature and had 180 degree headers on the car. He ran the headers in Oklahoma City on Friday night before the Saturday NCRA show in Lawton. That Ray Cates number 2 sure screamed those two nights. The people in the grandstands had never heard such a sound including me when I was at Oklahoma City that Friday night. I was ready for that sound Saturday and I watched the people in the stands reaction. It was great.

Mike

180 degree headers were ear splitting. The late models around here mainly ran them. Don't remember any supers running them in Kansas anyway. Seems like Jerry Wilson ran something different in the way of headers though. But I don't think they were 180's?

Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes

I got ahead of myself, the Ray Cates car that Harold Leep drove those two nights I believe had a 180 crank shaft instead of 180 degree headers. I do know that my hero Gilbert Hutson from Lawton did have 180 degree headers on his super in 1975. He didn't run with them very much and switched over to regular headers that same year. I do have one photo with the headers on his car.

Mike

I am almost sure Raymond was around back in the 70's , he was just not as organized at being a flagman then all the time like he is now, I remember the guy in Armed Forces Day Parades on his Red Stingray Bike. 88 might have been his comeback ???? ..

I talked to Stanley Landers one time a while back and he said that Wrecker was at the yard they have now, said he doubted he would ever get rid of it, I told him he should restore it, still talk to Stanley when I see him at Lawton.

I will tell ya another type of Header that would Ring your ears to the drum and that was those Zoomies from back in the early 80's , when WoO allowed Big Blocks and Ed French had both on during the 81 Sagebrush WoO tour through here and we followed them from Houston all the way to Bellville and that week was part of my hearing loss I have today.lol

We sat in the very center of the infield at Bellville in 81 and French Big Block with those Zoomies would just ring our ears and it was almost unbearable without putting your hands over your ears. Also remember Court Grandstaff say they were good for dry slick as if they were built right and pointed to the ground in front of the rear tires it would blow the dust out of the path so those Rears got a better grip on the track and not so much dust under them, not so sure how effective it was but it sure sounded good coming from Court.LOL

See if I can think of some more of what i remember at Lawton Speedway from way back when.

Several people ran the flat crank, I think that Jim Morris had a flat crank on Emmett's Doc Garret car that won the OKC championship in 1971. Jerry Wilson tried the 180 degree headers on his car at the start of the 1976 season. Both exhausts came out the left Side of the car and man was it loud. Jerry did not run them very long but I do not know why, opening night Tulsa in 1976 Thad Dosher was in his car a blew up. I went and looked at it and the tattle tell tach was pegged at 10,000. Jerry tried a pressurised oil system once, you check not check the oil at all with ou removing a bunch of stuff. That didn't last long.

Ray

Lawton was and always will be special to me. Really wanted to get in a vintage show over there this year, but issues have come up. These days the strength is moving to Texas on the vintage deal, not sure when the vintage cars will be back there. For whatever reason, that's me in the frontseat of the truck. Probably caused too much trouble to be outside.lol 1971

Ray, You right Jerry did run the 180 degree headers on his car in 1976. I think there were a couple reasons they didn't last long. 1) was the heat they put off over the top of the engine. 2) It was not real easy to work on if he had engine issues or needed to make repairs . I thought he had some that came out of right side of the car. He may have tried them off both sides. You right they were very loud. I'm surprise that they passed the muffler rule they had in place at the Fairgrounds in Tulsa. He had to be very creative to bend them where they would clear everything it was a very tight fit

Mike drove Jerry's car in 1973 and he was playing around 180 degree cranks then. Mike ran that engine a couple times. If I remember correctly it vibrated real bad.

I worked for him from 1984 to 1988 when I raced sprint 4's and he was always trying to design and engineer something different than anybody else. I helped build some V-4's when I worked there and he also built a twin cam Pinto. One cam that open the intake valves and the other cam open the exhaust valves. I think someone in the vintage car class has that engine.

I don't know the story how Norman hired Mike. I thought the 1st time Mike drove the 17 was at the Winter nationals at Enid in 1974 and he won. If he drove for him before that I don't remember where or when.

The Sprint 4 division was a great idea but the rules changed every year and cars kept getting more expensive. When we started no quick changes were allowed then 1986 they allowed quick changes. We ran holly and weber carbs the first 3 years then they changed the rules to fuel injection. Also the motors were suppose to be production made straight out of the car. When the after market Pontiac Iron Duke was introduce the Pintos struggle to keep up with it. Al Hall was even getting ready to build a Porsche 944 motor for Walt M.

There were Vega's, Chevy II's, Pinto's, Volkswagon's, Convair, Dastun 260 Z 6 cylinder,Toyota, Mazda Rotary, talk about a loud engine the Mazda Rotary raced at the fairgrounds at Hutchinson it was louder than the all the rest of the cars put together. It was a screamer but it always ran hot and most of time and didn't finish , but it was very fast when it was running. You never knew what might show up for a engine in that class. The engine rules become harder an harder to police because of all the different types of engines that were being run. It did make it interesting to see who would come out with a different engine to see how it would perform. I guess that's why I like the midgets so well.

It was a fun class I just wish it would have lasted a few more years. The IMCA 360 class is what did the class in. The last year we ran was 1988.

I will post some more pictures when our racing season ends. We have 3 more weeks of racing. Hopefully things will slow down and I will be able to post some more photo's.

Tony

Some people will say Outlaw Motor Speedway in Muskogee is the best facility in the state but I believe Lawton is , one reason, Outlaw has sand and it can be a mess at the place after a night of racing there and it just seems so big of a place space wise and track wise.

Lawton Speedway is still a great facility by far in my opinion the best in Okla.(Only), now since SFS is gone.It's layout and facilities are very good compared to other tracks in Okla. right now.But it has lost some of its shine and luster and mojo so to speak with issues from A to Z.

I don't know maybe I have gotten older but I can remember a time when I use to drive down Sheridan Rd. and come upon Bishop Rd. and see the track with the lights on and could feel the excitement and think man I am goin to Lawton Speedway, but do not get that feeling much anymore,seems anymore it just another night and a circle of dirt and hope we stay outta the melee's that will happen, but I will say this until it got tore down ,last year when I pulled up to State Fair Speedway to race my Sprinter on Friday nights , I would see that Grandstand coming down May Ave. and I could still feel that excitement and hoped for a good night of racing and most nights we had a good night and still feel fortunate to win an A main at the place and finish 2nd in the points in 09, something that I will ALWAYS be proud of.

Mike, I know you remember Mr. & Mrs. Teague who use to run the pit window forever at Lawton , they were great people.

Wonder what happened to guys like Richard Gillam #100 "The Out House Mouse" car and Billy Poolaw from Anadarko and Les Lusk and Delbert Bybee with the CH Malone Ford 6 Cyl. from Apache and Buster Daughtery from Grandfield , David Newsom/Garland Newsom(know he is deceased) , Bill Tutwiller, Clifford Cherry , Doran Raine,Bobby Wainscott The Holiday Gulf Car, Sherman French,Frank Headley ,Terry Sims,Lonnie Muehlbarger just some I can think of right now. Be cool to see if these fellas are still around and what they are doing. J.D.

JD,

I've been going to Lawton Speedway ever since it was built, I even went to the LO Ranch to watch them race the coupes. When the new Lawton opened my Dan and I were there, if you got there late you had to sit on the ground where the catch fence on the front straight is now. I remember maybe there were three to four rows deep sitting on the ground. They started with continuing running those coupes. Boy, to watch Gilbert Hutson race against Ralph Parkinson was something to see. I'm proud to say I got to watch some of the greatest races ever at Lawton and that goes for Fairgrounds Speedway during Mar-Car days and Tulsa Fairgrounds Speedway. They may have torn down both Tulsa and Oklahoma City but they will never tear down my memories. Lots of the guys you listed are now gone. I hope lots of the guys that are still around will be able to attend our Racers Reunion in Wichita Falls, October 16th. this reunion will have a special event when the Murphree Brothers will unveil the Jim McElreath sprint car they have restored for the very first time. Jim McElreath will be there to see it.

Mike

Mike, My Dad like you and yours went to LO Ranch and also went to Lawton Speedway since it opened, not fortunate enough to have been born till 63 and I was takin to Lawton in 66 in a Tompkins Auto Salvage Wrecker which my dad drove and worked for them back then.

Dad use to tell me the story of LO Ranch and Garland Newsom getting that 2x4 or 2x6 stuck through him when he crashed into that wooden fence at LO, At first I thought it was just them jokin but found out it was very real/true.

I do remember those very big crowds but not until the late 60's and early 70's, in fact I got a program I think it is from 73 and shows a shot of the Super Modifieds in the pit area right south of the grandstands and you can see in the background a full grandstands, looked packed , elbow to elbow.

Gilber Hutson, I remember Gilbert who always had a smile and a Cigar most of the time and use to pack that track with that Cigar and wore one of those hats like Dick Bergeren wears on Nascar and Speed broadcasts(cannot think of what they call them),Anyway guess the Cigar relaxed him for the nights war that was about to take place, but once the war was over , he was happy and fan friendly and always a Gentleman, I believed he lived out on Goodyear Blvd. which use to be west of town and that was when he went from Openwheel to the Late Models , He was a great one back then.

Mike I remember driving down 2nd St. in Lawton(They Called it Salvage Yard/ Car Repair Row) all the way from 6th st. north around to D Ave.(now Central Mall) and that 3 or so miles was back then was Race Car Row for business who sponsored or guys who worked at those places and raced at the Speedway , Tompkins Salvage , Beville's Salvage ,Corley and Sons Salvage, D & R Salvage , McCarters Marine , Fox Radiator , Auto Repair Shop, Nix Tire, Crow's Body Shop,Welch Oil Co., Joe Porter Mobile Homes and I know I am missing a bunch more, plus not even mentioning others on Lee Blvd. and north Sheridan Rd. as well, just seemed back then you could drive around town and see race cars parked out front or around businesses then, for a 10 yr. old kid I thought that was pretty cool stuff.

Always remember the place to go get a bite to eat afterwards and you'd see most all the racers was Leo's Truck Stop there on Lee Blvd. , they even had a few after race altercations there in that parking lot on several occassions.

Your right Mike , got those memories of all the tracks you mentioned and for me about 44 yrs. more of others as well, whether to go watch as a kid or when I started trying to learn about the cars by helping out some and then on to owning cars now. Been highs and lows but have had a great time doing it. J.D.

Tony I looked in my 1975 NCRA yearbook, the '74 season, and Mike drove the 17 at the Wichita NCRA feature and finished 2nd, Don Engel won. The article said that Mike was leading the feature when he and Larry Wilson got together and Mike spun and was put at the back of the field. He passed everybody except Don and was gaining on him at the checker. It said that Mike got a standing ovation. I remember Norman saying that Mike and Larry Wilson had a problem with each other that went back to the 1973 NCRA race when Mike was in his 95 and he and Larry had a run in. Larry would not come around and I remember talking to him after the feature that Gene won at Dewey in 1975, Norman told me to not to talk to him, that Mike and Larry did not like each other, I do not know the first time that Mike drove for Norman, but in 74 Wichita just ran modifieds no supers and after Dave Moore Left the 17 several drivers drove it until Mike started, Dale Reed drove it a couple of times and held that track record for modifieds.

In the winter of 75-76 I was with Norman and we went to Dave Moore's garage and he was working on Jerry Wilson's new car for the Nance shop. He had to bend the top frame rail down on the left side of the car for the 180 degree headers, on page 176 in the "HIGH PLAINS THUDER" you can see wherer the body has been patched where the 180 headers came out on the left side.

I remember Mike talking about driving Jerry's car in 1973 and he said that it handled so bad that he wore blisters on his hand and told Jerry that he needed somebody else to drive the car.

I really enjoy your pictures, Please let Mike know that Gene See has passed away

Ray

Doran Raine (1938-2006). He lived in Kansas before moving Iowa Park, TX.

Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes

Warren, Ya know a funny thing was Ken Sweet moved from Lawton up to Wichita,Ks. back then I believe because of a job, not sure if it was with Cessna or ???, Ken was one of those drivers that if he won the Trophy Dash the Trophy Girl best be on her toes and expect about anything from being picked up to be dipped and all that along with a kiss, he was hilarious with his front stretch trophy dash antics and seemed to always put the fear in the trophy girls eyes , guess they were warned before hand once they knew Ken had won the dash.

Another racer that moved from the Dallas area up to Wichita,Ks. back then and also I believe it was work related and I believe he still races today is Rick Summers.