Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Curious----if you were "running" these businesses, would you allow your employees to work at other car parts stores or trucking businesses during the week---as long as it wasn't during your business hours?   I mean, afterall, it isn't interfering with their work hours with you.

Most sane business owners would not allow this to happen.  If you say you would be fine with it............you wouldn't be a sane business owner.  I would never allow this to happen.  I was never allowed to work at the shop down the street (called moonlighting) and when I became the shop foreman, I did not allow my machinists to work at other shops.  Period.  

The word sane does not apply to his viewpoints.

Ha Ha Ha. Chris. You have just proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that you have never been involved in anything close to management in a business in your life. The only option you have in any discussion about business is to just keep repeating yourself.

Wow.  I don't know a single business owner that allows their employees to moonlight at other similar businesses.  Not a good practice.  I guess since you don't understand why this is bad business, it makes it tougher for you to understand why the WoO should not allow moonlighting from it's platinum drivers.  Sorry, but with the new development, I can no longer put any stock into your opinion on the track prep at Port Royal.  Oh wait.......Nevermind, I never did anyways.   

I know lots of auto techs, HVAC techs, welders, carpenters that moonlight. They still have their jobs and some of the companies they work for are well aware of their after hour work. Insurance could be an issue in the case of an injury outside of the work place but after work sports can cause injury too. I've seen valuable employees threaten to quit their jobs if they couldn't moonlight.

I have no doubt it happens.  However, I know a lot of business owners and NONE of them allow it.  The owners I know in the HVAC, plumbing and machining trades ESPECIALLY don't allow it.  What a terrible position to put a business owner in.  I was a foreman in the machining trade for the last 15 years of my 23 years in the business.  The owner did not allow my employees to walk into another shop and work----with knowledge of what we were doing, and how we were doing it.  Not to mention all of the other potential problems.  "Hey, we have a hot job and I'll need everyone to work 10 hours days the next few weeks"--"I can't because I have to be to work at the other shop"----NO F-N WAY!   The next thing you know, the grass is greener at the other shop----even though we all know it's really not, it's just different----and you are back looking for another employee that you served to the other shop on a silver platter.  

I remember a neighbor of mine was recently hired by a local plumber back around 2010.  One weekend, I asked him if he could look at a leak in my water heater.  He came over with his tools and on his way out of my house and down the street, his boss (who also lives in the neighborhood) drove by and saw him walking out with his tools.  He pulled up next to him and told him if he wanted to return to work Monday, he better never see him leaving someone's house with his toolbox again.  He didn't care that we were friends.  

One of our machine technicians for our CNC machines would moonlight on a regular basis as well.  He was one of the best technicians in the country and even won their "technician of the year award" out of thousands of others.  It didn't matter---they got wind of him doing work after hours and gave him a choice between working for them, or working for himself. 

I can't think of a single situation where I would allow an employee to work for a competing business in my area.  That said, the WoO's area is the United States.  I can't fault them for what amounts to a very reasonable "no-compete" clause.  And the best part about it is, it's a free country and they don't even have to sign it and they can still race with them!!!!  Not something that is an option for all of the other examples I gave above. 

This is completely apples and oranges.  Your plumbing story is ridiculous, I'm hoping you completely made that up or you're not remembering it real well.  I don't care who a guy is, if he thinks he's going to tell me what to do with my personal tools on my day off, I would've told him to find another plumber.  If there's any truth to this I'm betting he's not in business anymore.

However I think it comes down to this, do you view the HL series as legitmate competition to the WOO?  Personally, I don't.  I get why the rule exists but I just don't think it should apply here.  From what I remember they have tried to appease the WOO.  It's not a conflict in any way in my eyes.  But a real question to this would be if stopping drivers from moonlighting is just "smart business", why is it OK for the WOO drivers to race the Knoxville Nationals?  Couldn't that hurt their brand?  Why would people want to buy a ticket to an outlaw race when they can just go to the Knoxville Nationals?  What if the WOO wants to schedule a race or maybe make up a rain date on that weekend?  Doesn't seem to smart on that weekend,

We need to remember that none of us know the whole story.  I think the smart thing would've been for Sweet and Larson to have a conversation with the WOO before publicly announcing anything.  Find out what the concerns are and why.  Explain what they (Sweet and Larson) are trying to do and why.  They could've had a full agreement in place.  Maybe they did have that conversation?  Maybe they didn't like the WOO's answers?  The impression I got from them (Sweet and Larson) was that they hadn't talked and couldn't understand why there would be a problem but knew it might be.  Like I said none of us know the whole story and it's completely out of our hands.  I can see both sides of the argument but I just think if cooler heads could prevail this could be a good thing for the RACERS.

1.  Not even close to made up.  Guy still lives down the street from me.  

2.  Plumber is in business---one of the most reputable and respected in the area.  

3.  You're smoking something if you think a business has no right to tell you that you cannot work at a competing business in your time off.  

Your Knoxville Nationals example doesn't hold up.  The Nationals are part of the WoO schedule every year, even if it is a WoO race in name only.

Signature here.

1.  I still don't believe you, there is so many holes in your story, but I wasn't there so it doesn't matter.  But if you think it's so wrong to "moonlight" for another company (even if it's not a competitor) why would you even ask him to look at your water heater knowing it's wrong in your eyes?  Kind of says something about your character that you would knowinly risk your friend's job for your personal gain.  Why didn't you call the reputible plumbing shop where he worked?

3. No where did I or have I ever said or thought that a company should let an employee work for a competing business.

Based on this response and other responses I've seen with you, reading comprehension is something you struggle with.  So I'll say it again.  Your examples are apples to oranges.  Just because the asshole plumber in your town doesn't let his employees look at his friend's water heaters on his off time doesn't mean that's the way a national sports league should run it's business, which is why I said your examples are apples to oranges.  The plumber in your town has a right to run his business any way he wants (as long as it's legal).

Again the thing I think causes varying opinions on this is if you see the High Limit series as direct competition to the World of Outlaws.  I realize they drive the same cars with the same rules and I'm guessing either a very similar or identical format to the World of Outlaws.  But I don't see them as competition, which is why I don't see the huge deal here.  I'm guessing you do see them as competition?  And that's why I think we have different opinions. 

In my eyes there's 12 races on a weekday.  Could a sprint car team go get coorporate sponsorship saying they're only going to race 12 races on a Tuesday night?  I don't think so but I've never been in those meetings.  I also have a hard time believing the entire World of Outlaws circuit is going to follow the High Limit series.  I also have a hard time believing that fans would skip a World of Outlaws race because there was a High limit race at a different time.  I think the more opportunities people have to see sprint car racing and see the some of the best sprint car drivers, the better for the entire sport.

Again from the way I look at it I kind of side with High Limit.  But I don't know the whole story, just like you don't either.

Now before I start, I'm going to say that I don't want anything to change as far as WOO drivers racing the Knoxville Nationals.  But how doesn't my example hold up?  Lets be honest the only reason the Knoxville Nationals gets the pass from the WOO it does is because of tradition.  It's not a WOO race, they don't get points (maybe showup points?) and they don't run the WOO format, yet they run the same cars with the same drivers.  That is direct competition to the WOO in my opinion.  But if we want to look at other examples, why do the drivers get to race in Australia?  Years ago why were they allowed to race in Arizona over the winter?  Those series were quite similar to the High Limit series.

1.  I don't care if you do believe me---it happened 100% that way.   The guy was very young, and just got in the plumbing business.  The plumber that plumbed our house just a few years earlier, retired.  I didn't know this guy very well, but saw he was a plumber, so I gave him a call.  (Normally, I fix my own crap, but this was an on-demand heater, and it was like looking at Japanese when I took the cover off-----ended up replacing the heater under warranty)  I apologized to him and never put him in that spot again.  I honestly didn't think he was going to be able to fix it, but at least he could tell me what was up?  

3.  So we do agree that employees should not be allowed to work for a competing business.  

I guess our main difference in opinion is whether or not the WoO and High Limit Series are in direct competition.  I'm fine with having a differing opinion.  In my eyes, it absolutely is a conflict of interest and if I were the WoO, and I were paying a certain group of drivers a premium to remain exclusive, I would have the exact same rules.  But that's just my thoughts because I feel like I've been involved in what I consider similar circumstances.  Hopefully, they get it sorted out so the fans can enjoy both----I would be elated if the Outlaws did not have the clause---but I understand why they do.  I also think it's good business.  So, in this case, I side with the WoO and their decision to protect their brand. 

But those are just my opinions. 

Some sanity.

Plumbing is a bad comparison. Call it veggies and fruits if you want, but there is no way under God's green earth that a man or woman who hires plumbers as employees is going to allow said employees to compete against them after quitting time. 

If you owned the WoO, there is no way you would not view Hi Limit as a competitor and a threat to your brand. [in the words of the national buffoon, PERIOD]

Within hearing distance of Tri City Speedway

"But those are just my opinions"????

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt you are NOT the infallible BS Trouser! ;)

Whew!  Thanks God!   ;)

The example doesn't hold because the Nationals are literally part of the WoO schedule, so it cannot be viewed as a direct competition if the WoO considers it part of their own activities for the season.  It's also not the only race on the schedule that doesn't use the standard WoO format (King's Royal, I think Jackson Nationals, and I know there's a few more).  Those events are also not viewed as direct competition.  I know the Nationals has not always been part of the WoO schedule, most recently I believe it was during the time that NST existed.  There was speculation on this board about WoO having a competing event that would try to force their teams to skip Nationals, but concensus was they wouldn't be able to pull it off (not that it was ever really in the cards).

As far as Australia and Arizona, the yearly WoO contract is only effective from the start of the season to the end.  Between early November and early February the independent contractors, i.e. teams and drivers, are free to race when and where they please.  If WoO considered off-season (and overseas) events to be direct competition then they would try to implement a full 12 month contract.

Signature here.

Correct. 

In the past, I believe someone on this board also brought up the Cappy at Knoxville, and wanted to know why that was okay since it was not a WoO sanctioned event.  The Outlaws don't forbid their drivers from racing other events no matter the circumstance.  They may race other events so long as they get written permission to do so.  (my understanding anyways from the Jason Sides incident a few years back)   I'm not sure if they require the drivers to submit for written permission, if the get an email stating they have the okay, or if it's just casually mentioned at the start of the season.  It doesn't matter.  They all know it's allowed, and there is absoulutely no reason for the Outlaws to forbid it.  You could count on one hand the number of people who would attend the Cappy and not be ther for the 410 Nats 3 days later.   The event has no negative impact on the Outlaws.  

could the new rule be interpretted to allow teams to participate in the 4 or 8 races elsewhere without permission but still allow an unlimited amount of non sanctioned racing with permision?

meaning they ask and get approval for the Cappy and the Million and they still get the 4 or 8 HL or whatever shows the teams want that the WoO doesnt give permsiion to?

For shear kindness to all their teams I would think they NEED to permit the teams to race the Million. Too much money to limit their teams plus if a WoO driver won it, well they still get to say they are the best in the world. the best gotta be at the biggest race of the decade/century etc.

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

Good question.................

As far as the million goes, I have supported the WoO decision to protect their brand.  However, I think it would be a terrible PR move if they did not give written permission to all teams to compete in the million.  It is no different than the Cappy at Knoxville-----with the exception of life changing money!!!!   ;)

Back to the original post here! I will make the trip for the Queens Royal! Great to see a nice paying show with no sanction! I truly hope it works out for the promoter!