Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Yeah a big part of the FloRacing model includes showcasing mid week racing.    There is the “Castrol FloRacing Night in America” for late models and the “Mid Week Money Series” for sprint cars.     Modifieds have a lot of Short Track Super Series races mid week on Flo.     Tonight there is a USAC race. 

I suspect Flo has large viewership numbers  (and advertising income !!) on these nights because  #1 they are not competing with DirtVision content like they do on weekends and  #2 they are not competing with local racing which draws their audience away on weekends.    And #3, since it is an off night for NASCAR, Larson may show up    I would be very surprised if Flo / HL will did away with that model and instead just scheduled their races against the Outlaws.       Also if they developed a schedule to match WoO they would mostly race on weekends only and Larson wouldn’t be able to race and that defeats one of the purposes of starting the new series. 

HL didn’t have any races scheduled in March.    That was a smart move because half the WoO races got rained out.     They were traveling around Florida, Texas, and Oklahoma all month getting to race about twice every 2 weeks.    To be fair, a lot of races in PA got rained out too.    So maybe HL has figured out that it is best to keep the guys off the road in March and give them a month off.   Smart move. 

The series is named “High Limit” because the overall purse “limit” that their drivers can race for in a season is high because they can race HL races, local shows, and Outlaw shows.    Brad mentioned that in a podcast.

You're assuming that HL will have to force teams into exclusive contracts to grow their business. I think its more like "the carrot or the stick".... HL giving drivers freedom is the carrot, & forcing them into exclusivity is the stick. HL seems to be choosing the carrot & plenty of drivers seem to like it that way

RunWYB brings up excellent points.  I don't think they will have an exclusive contract necessarily.  Maybe, but they can do it more discreetly.  As RunWYB mentions, if they get enough on the schedule, drivers aren't going to want to race everywhere.  They just have to pull the trigger and keep their drivers at their events which the charter system will effectively do.

To be clear once again, I'm not against the HL nor am I against anything they're doing, or are going to do to protect their brand.  They will continue to put a hold on their drivers in some way or another, and hopefully all of those that hated the Outlaws for the same reason, will understand rather than bash.  It's business.  The Outlaws did nothing wrong but try to protect and grow their business, and the HL is going to do the same and in the end, they are going to look virtually identical.  There will just be some subtle differences in how they go about it, but they both have to end up in the same place. 

1.  Their drivers will need to be at ALL of their events

2.  Their drivers cannot be moonlighting 100 miles down the road on a Saturday at an Outlaw show, when they have a HL show on Tuesday.  I'm going to the Saturday Outlaw show, and not interrupting work for the Tuesday show.  

Yes, we can say Flo, Flo, Flo 100 times if you want.  I'm not so sure a track promoter really cares how well Flo is doing if 2000 people are in the stands and the Outlaws drew 6000 3 days earlier.  

adding to this and enjoying good discussion without personal attacks.  i decided to take a look at  point fund payouts.  Interestyingly enough the World of Outlaws up the game in 2023 with an exclusivity bonus.  i did notice WoO2nd place -$20,000 and 3rd place -$5,000 did drop this season.  here is the break down below.  I'm excited to see the breakdown for the 2025 season - one would assume this competition should really be good for teams.

links:

woo 2023 is https://worldofoutlaws.com/sprintcars/more-than-1-7-million-available-in-2023-between-bonus-program-points-fund/

woo 2024 is https://worldofoutlaws.com/sprintcars/competitor-notes/   for exclusivity bonus hit the tab above table

High limit 2024 https://www.highlimitracing.com/payout/#:~:text=Season%2DLong%20Championship%20(%241%2C000%2C000%20Points%20Fund)

Good stuff! 

There is another issue that needs to be mentioned.  I've heard both in person, and on this board, that "HL is driving up the purses and payouts for the WoO because of the competition, and that can only be a good thing for sprint car racing."   Can ONLY be a good thing?  Hmm.  There's a lot of business majors in the stands at sprint car races I guess.  It MAY be a good thing, or it could be a disaster.  We will find out in the next couple of years. 

World Racing Group (and it's investors) operate on profits, not breaking even.  And not just any profit, but a profit worth all of the headaches operating a business like this, all over North America.  I'm going to assume those who have money invested in this endevour demand some pretty hefty returns.  I know I'm not supposed to assume, but this would be a pretty safe assumption as it's universal in the business world.  What happens when competition drives up the cost of doing business?  Those with a financial stake in this aren't going to just simply roll over and take less.  They're going to figure out how to increase their bottom line.  They're going to pass these costs onto the fan.  I'm fine with it as I've never complained about ticket prices,  As a matter of fact, I attend NFL, MLB, and NHL games on an annual basis, and the costs of those events dwarf the cost of an Outlaw race.  I would have ZERO issues paying $60-80 to see a national touring circuit sprint car race if that's what it took to keep that sanctioning body on the road.  You get what you pay for.  The problem is, most fans wouldn't pay this.  The ticket prices are pretty much set right at that breaking point between filling the stands, and having empty seats.  I don't think there's room to grow in this area rapidly enough to offset huge increases in payouts and purses.  I still have never figured out how anyone can be dumb enough to cry about how payouts have not increased with costs of cars, but then complain the ticket prices are too high..................I'm lost on the supidity.  

Hopefully streaming is making as much money as everyone is assuming it is, and DV and Flo do indeed offset the massive costs of running these 2 national touring series up and down the road, as well as pay the behind the scenes staff that keeps these things running.  The Outlaws for a while were the only game in town.  Does that mean they were greedy?  Or, were they simply running their show exactly at the costs/payouts they knew would work and still make it worthwhile running this thing across the country?  Is the addition of a competitor going to "keep them honest" or put the costs of doing business at a point where it is no longer worth it?  We will find out.

A number of fans have said no one could ever unseat the Outlaws.  I've never said that.  I've always maintained that no one, including the HL, could unseat the Outlaws, without becoming a carbon copy of the Outlaws.  They are going to run side by side for the forseeable future.  Will both survive?  Will only one survive?  Either way, no matter who is on the road in 5 years, the drivers will be "owned" by the series, they will have "exclusive" rights to their drivers, and drivers will have limited options to compete outside of their series.  Sounds like the Outlaws were actually doing it right all along.  Who would have thought? 

Egras - I have no idea where the line may be or if they are even approaching "A Bridge to Far" but I 100% agree with you about your return on investment thoughts.

Although we have zero control over it let alone if we are even seeing or will see an all out arms race between WRG/DIRTVision and High Limit / Flo if one pushes the other to the breaking point it could be bad for all involved.

It's so refreshing to converse with someone who gets it.  No hate for either organization here.  I just have a very realistic understanding of how this could all end if everything doesn't fall in place.  Also, we MAY be in for tighter times ahead as our last true recession (not counting the COVID blip in 2020) was 16 years ago.  Interesting to see if and how both organizations can weather the storm if and when times get tight for fans and sponsors.  

I've posted this here before but this seems like a very relevant post to revisit the points on. 

WRG is a company created on dirt track racing. It was built out of and solely consists of owning dirt track related properties - including the World of Outlaws brand, which derives its name from the long-term national sprint car series and has since created a late model series under the WoO brand, amongst many other dirt track entities (ie: DIRTcar, UMP, etc.). It has also created a streaming service known as DirtVision to showcase it's primary properties, as well as signing deals with several well-known tracks across the nation. 

FloSports is an over-the-top based streaming company that has invested in and acquired rights to many niche sports and events - wrestling, track and field, dirt track racing, marching band, NASCAR, and exploring and executing collegiate sports at lower levels and non-major sports (football, men's basketball, etc.). 

From a front-end approach, Flo has been popular because of the value of an annual subscription fee that is not only cheaper than DirtVision, but also provides access to several popular series - originally ASCoC, USAC, IRA, NARC, Lucas Oil Late Model Series/Castrol FloNight in America and now High Limit, not to exclude the big time Eldora Events (annual Dream/World, Eldora Million, Joker's Jackpot). 

They seem like formidable foes as corporations - but what really worries me is that Flo has gone through several rounds of VC financing to the tune of 70+ million dollars. I haven't done any napkin math, but I'm genuinely curious if every dollar the WoO has ever made reaches that amount. I'd guess prior to DV no, but even after I question it. WoO has been around for 50 years - has it averaged $1.4M a year in revenue? Given long-term costs, I just don't know.

I have enjoyed WoO and High Limit over the past two seasons - the competition I think is making the sport I love so much that much better. I just wonder if one side is not as invested in the long term as the other. VC investment typically means a shorter expectation of return. I want to say I don't have a favorite or prefer a winner, but until I see more long-term support from Flo/HL I am cautious. 

I would hope all of us on here would agree the worst-case scenario is HL killing the Outlaws and then Flo pulling the rug on HL. I don't see it happening, but God help us if it does.

Good stuff! 

There is another issue that needs to be mentioned.  I've heard both in person, and on this board, that "HL is driving up the purses and payouts for the WoO because of the competition, and that can only be a good thing for sprint car racing."   Can ONLY be a good thing?  Hmm.  There's a lot of business majors in the stands at sprint car races I guess.  It MAY be a good thing, or it could be a disaster.  We will find out in the next couple of years. 

World Racing Group (and it's investors) operate on profits, not breaking even.  And not just any profit, but a profit worth all of the headaches operating a business like this, all over North America.  I'm going to assume those who have money invested in this endevour demand some pretty hefty returns.  I know I'm not supposed to assume, but this would be a pretty safe assumption as it's universal in the business world.  What happens when competition drives up the cost of doing business?  Those with a financial stake in this aren't going to just simply roll over and take less.  They're going to figure out how to increase their bottom line.  They're going to pass these costs onto the fan.  I'm fine with it as I've never complained about ticket prices,  As a matter of fact, I attend NFL, MLB, and NHL games on an annual basis, and the costs of those events dwarf the cost of an Outlaw race.  I would have ZERO issues paying $60-80 to see a national touring circuit sprint car race if that's what it took to keep that sanctioning body on the road.  You get what you pay for.  The problem is, most fans wouldn't pay this.  The ticket prices are pretty much set right at that breaking point between filling the stands, and having empty seats.  I don't think there's room to grow in this area rapidly enough to offset huge increases in payouts and purses.  I still have never figured out how anyone can be dumb enough to cry about how payouts have not increased with costs of cars, but then complain the ticket prices are too high..................I'm lost on the supidity.  

Hopefully streaming is making as much money as everyone is assuming it is, and DV and Flo do indeed offset the massive costs of running these 2 national touring series up and down the road, as well as pay the behind the scenes staff that keeps these things running.  The Outlaws for a while were the only game in town.  Does that mean they were greedy?  Or, were they simply running their show exactly at the costs/payouts they knew would work and still make it worthwhile running this thing across the country?  Is the addition of a competitor going to "keep them honest" or put the costs of doing business at a point where it is no longer worth it?  We will find out.

A number of fans have said no one could ever unseat the Outlaws.  I've never said that.  I've always maintained that no one, including the HL, could unseat the Outlaws, without becoming a carbon copy of the Outlaws.  They are going to run side by side for the forseeable future.  Will both survive?  Will only one survive?  Either way, no matter who is on the road in 5 years, the drivers will be "owned" by the series, they will have "exclusive" rights to their drivers, and drivers will have limited options to compete outside of their series.  Sounds like the Outlaws were actually doing it right all along.  Who would have thought? 

Another thing that does not get talked about enough is the other reason why the Outlaw's had the rule they had as far as drivers being exclusive to their tour to receive the benefits. Random tracks/ promoters having a big winners purse race with no sanctioning fee to pay. There have been a few examples the past decade where a promoter/track offers a 20,000, or 40,000, or 100,000 to win race unsantioned. 

Each situation was different as some where on weekends and some fans were mad that the Outlaws had scheduled a race (most likely already scheduled long before the schedule came out) against the big money race. Other races were in the middle of the week and people cried that the Outlaws and even All Star teams would not travel and race the unsantioned race. Its simple, it actually hurts the series if they let drivers race where ever they want anytime. By the time you get to the end of the year, if you have 80races scheduled and only 2 or 3cars were at each race because the others decided to race random races for "more" money, and just take the hit in the points then the same people crying about Outlaws not allowing drivers race whenever whereever would be crying about only 2 -3 drivers racing all the races. 

This situation has not really happened with HL yet so it will be interesting with how they react. The thing is while they do allow drivers to race on off weekends, they do require all drivers to race in all sanction races to get points. To me this is the same as the Outlaws rule. Difference is HL does not have as many races scheduled. Outlaws have always had 80+races scheduled so the opportunities have always been limited anyway. Only time it comes up is when things get rained out. By not having these rules it would make it easy for a random promoter to go, hey I could just save the sanctioning fee, use that money and put it into the winners share and promote a big purse race which will get fans in here. But not really. If things went this way you would have too many carny, get rich quick, used car salesmen types thinking they could put on a show and it would not be good for the sport.

Another thing that does not get talked about enough is the other reason why the Outlaw's had the rule they had as far as drivers being exclusive to their tour to receive the benefits. Random tracks/ promoters having a big winners purse race with no sanctioning fee to pay. There have been a few examples the past decade where a promoter/track offers a 20,000, or 40,000, or 100,000 to win race unsantioned. 

Each situation was different as some where on weekends and some fans were mad that the Outlaws had scheduled a race (most likely already scheduled long before the schedule came out) against the big money race. Other races were in the middle of the week and people cried that the Outlaws and even All Star teams would not travel and race the unsantioned race. Its simple, it actually hurts the series if they let drivers race where ever they want anytime. By the time you get to the end of the year, if you have 80races scheduled and only 2 or 3cars were at each race because the others decided to race random races for "more" money, and just take the hit in the points then the same people crying about Outlaws not allowing drivers race whenever whereever would be crying about only 2 -3 drivers racing all the races. 

This situation has not really happened with HL yet so it will be interesting with how they react. The thing is while they do allow drivers to race on off weekends, they do require all drivers to race in all sanction races to get points. To me this is the same as the Outlaws rule. Difference is HL does not have as many races scheduled. Outlaws have always had 80+races scheduled so the opportunities have always been limited anyway. Only time it comes up is when things get rained out. By not having these rules it would make it easy for a random promoter to go, hey I could just save the sanctioning fee, use that money and put it into the winners share and promote a big purse race which will get fans in here. But not really. If things went this way you would have too many carny, get rich quick, used car salesmen types thinking they could put on a show and it would not be good for the sport.

adding to this and enjoying good discussion without personal attacks.  i decided to take a look at  point fund payouts.  Interestyingly enough the World of Outlaws up the game in 2023 with an exclusivity bonus.  i did notice WoO2nd place -$20,000 and 3rd place -$5,000 did drop this season.  here is the break down below.  I'm excited to see the breakdown for the 2025 season - one would assume this competition should really be good for teams.

links:

woo 2023 is https://worldofoutlaws.com/sprintcars/more-than-1-7-million-available-in-2023-between-bonus-program-points-fund/

woo 2024 is https://worldofoutlaws.com/sprintcars/competitor-notes/   for exclusivity bonus hit the tab above table

High limit 2024 https://www.highlimitracing.com/payout/#:~:text=Season%2DLong%20Championship%20(%241%2C000%2C000%20Points%20Fund)

You said: "This situation has not really happened with HL yet so it will be interesting with how they react. The thing is while they do allow drivers to race on off weekends, they do require all drivers to race in all sanction races to get points. To me this is the same as the Outlaws rule."

Its not the same, & you just said it yourself: "they do allow drivers to race on off weekends"... BIG difference!

The reason that it "has not really happened with HL yet" is that no track would be dumb enough to put up more than $20,000 top prize in direct competition with HL, when they could just as easily schedule on an HL off day & get the same drivers. Works out best for everyone.....

Its not a big difference, sorry to say. They allow them currently because they have nothing scheduled currently and as Egras and others have eluded to, look at their off weekends currently. It has nothing to do with giving drivers and teams a rest or to go to "other" races. Outside of not racing in March which is a crapshoot to begin with, tt has been for the Outlaw dates at Knoxville to basically "pre race" for the Nationals, the big money race at Husets, Kings Royal which they had a race during the week anyway, then the weeks leading to Knoxville to again basically allow the teams run Knoxville. Yes currently, it appears that they have the freedom to race anywhere but realistically it is because it is a means to exist currently. That especially true for already estabilished races like Kings Royal and Knoxville.

And also, no one has been dumb enough yet. No one thought that we would see someone put up a big money race for years then Mansfield happened. Everyone was in an uproar because the Outlaws had a regular race scheduled and would not let their drivers attend it. That was when the whole platnium/exclusivity talk started, "I can't believe they won't let their guys race for $100k thats wrong." Even though no one at the time was paying close to 10k for 80+ times a year, however many 20,40,50, etc plus races but that 1 100k race got everyone up in arms. I know talking to a few team people and staff members that a few people within the All Stars were really ticked off about that show especially since it happened in their territory.

If this were to happening then whats to stop a track in a sprint car territory, to look at the upcoming year's schedule for HL to go, hey on such and such date in May, HL is going to be within 100miles of us. I bet if I put on a 20-50k race the following day a bunch of those guys will show up and I can get a pretty good car count and crowd and it would save me a lot of money with having to pay a sanctioning fee. I could potentially have a HL show without having to pay for a HL show. Then what is to stop from 2,3, 4 tracks doing this. Don't think it would happen, don't be so sure. History shows there are plenty of dumb people willing to take a risk, and sometimes they hit. Currently if HL told their guys or if it got out that they asked their guys to not support a race like that then everyone on here would be up in arms about it.

Its not a big difference, sorry to say. They allow them currently because they have nothing scheduled currently and as Egras and others have eluded to, look at their off weekends currently. It has nothing to do with giving drivers and teams a rest or to go to "other" races. Outside of not racing in March which is a crapshoot to begin with, tt has been for the Outlaw dates at Knoxville to basically "pre race" for the Nationals, the big money race at Husets, Kings Royal which they had a race during the week anyway, then the weeks leading to Knoxville to again basically allow the teams run Knoxville. Yes currently, it appears that they have the freedom to race anywhere but realistically it is because it is a means to exist currently. That especially true for already estabilished races like Kings Royal and Knoxville.

And also, no one has been dumb enough yet. No one thought that we would see someone put up a big money race for years then Mansfield happened. Everyone was in an uproar because the Outlaws had a regular race scheduled and would not let their drivers attend it. That was when the whole platnium/exclusivity talk started, "I can't believe they won't let their guys race for $100k thats wrong." Even though no one at the time was paying close to 10k for 80+ times a year, however many 20,40,50, etc plus races but that 1 100k race got everyone up in arms. I know talking to a few team people and staff members that a few people within the All Stars were really ticked off about that show especially since it happened in their territory.

If this were to happening then whats to stop a track in a sprint car territory, to look at the upcoming year's schedule for HL to go, hey on such and such date in May, HL is going to be within 100miles of us. I bet if I put on a 20-50k race the following day a bunch of those guys will show up and I can get a pretty good car count and crowd and it would save me a lot of money with having to pay a sanctioning fee. I could potentially have a HL show without having to pay for a HL show. Then what is to stop from 2,3, 4 tracks doing this. Don't think it would happen, don't be so sure. History shows there are plenty of dumb people willing to take a risk, and sometimes they hit. Currently if HL told their guys or if it got out that they asked their guys to not support a race like that then everyone on here would be up in arms about it.

This year the outlaws will not have to pay beyound 12th place. Also the HL drivers for the most part made more running outside the series than the Exclusivity point fund.

Thats a big gamble and look what happened to that big sprint car race. I agree it is a possibility though, but no gaurantee. The Front Row challenge is actually a feebie for the Outlaw teams that pays 21k to win and is only 30 miles from Knoxville the Monday before the nationals. There were only 24 cars that showed up. Only 8 of the HL drivers showed up for the big Husets races in June. Six raced elsewhere and 2 took that week off. There are always some other big races and series scheduling around the Lucas Oil late models and Outlaw latemodels, but it doesn't mean they will race them. Eldora has 2 historic crown jewels that have been around for decades. Neither national tour schedules against them and there are still some of those drivers that take those weekends off or race elswhere.

Besides if HL is in the area and someone wants to put on a big race, I don't know if they will really care. That just means HL has races scheduled. The track promoting the HL shows might though.

Thats a big gamble and look what happened to that big sprint car race. I agree it is a possibility though, but no gaurantee. The Front Row challenge is actually a feebie for the Outlaw teams that pays 21k to win and is only 30 miles from Knoxville the Monday before the nationals. There were only 24 cars that showed up. Only 8 of the HL drivers showed up for the big Husets races in June. Six raced elsewhere and 2 took that week off. There are always some other big races and series scheduling around the Lucas Oil late models and Outlaw latemodels, but it doesn't mean they will race them. Eldora has 2 historic crown jewels that have been around for decades. Neither national tour schedules against them and there are still some of those drivers that take those weekends off or race elswhere.

Besides if HL is in the area and someone wants to put on a big race, I don't know if they will really care. That just means HL has races scheduled. The track promoting the HL shows might though.