Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

The Capi or Front Row Challenge, pose no threat to the Outlaws draw for their premier event in Knoxville from Wednesday to Saturday.  None.  Everyone is in town for the Nats.   

The HL on the other hand, if they don't "tighten their belt" is allowing the possibility of a big show to be scheduled 100-200 miles down the road on an off night.  It doesn't matter if you "THINK" this would not affect the turnout at the HL race, it definitely WOULD affect the turnout at the HL show in a negative manner, especially if fans closer to the non-HL event decided to just wait a day or 2 to save travel.  We can keep pretending they won't do anything to hold their drivers from these potential events down the road.  They have to.  

Your last sentence "I don't know if they really care."  "The track promoting the HL shows might though."  Those go hand in hand.  If the track holding your shows cares, you HAVE to care.  

I enjoyed every High Limit race this year, as I subscribed to both Flo and DV.  I saw no issues, and enjoyed both series.  However, I'm not going to stray from my overall thought process that the HL is going to have to toughen up, and piss all of the Outlaw haters off by becoming more like the Outlaws.

I could have attended 2 HL races this year that were in my area.  However, it would have been an inconvenience for me to do so.  Had it been my only chance to see those "committed" HL guys, I would have put those races on my schedule and made the arrangements with work.  However, i didn't have to attend those events to see those drivers at Davenport (which was rained out anyways) and 34 Raceway.  You see, they were going to be in Knoxville in mid-June anyways because the HL did not schedule against the Outlaw event there.  In the future, the HL is going to make decisions in it's best interest, and will have to start scheduling against these other Outlaw events.  They will also have to find a way to contractually bind full time drivers to these events.  Additionally, they are going to have to find a way to keep "full time committed" drivers from straying away from the schedule to run events with other sanctioning bodies.  If that were my only chance to see those guys run, other than the Nats, I would have made arrangements to make it happen.  34 Raceway was in mid-May.  Davenport in early-June.  Didn't do it because all of those guys were in Knoxville in mid-June.  I don't know what the attendance was like at 34, or what it would have been like at Davenport.  But I do know a number of folks that held out to see those guys run in June, in the same vicinity.  

As many of you know, I'm a supporter of the WoO policy keeping their Platinum drivers under contract.  That is why.  The HL is going to have to tighten the reigns because I'm assuming it's their eventual goal to compete against the Outlaws all season without 3-4 week breaks.  Time will tell.

That all said, I enjoyed both series immensely this year, and hope both can continue to field full shows!  Just please be aware, if you are amongst those that thought the HL series was going to revolutionize the way drivers are paid and contracted for their services, you may end up very disappointed.  They are both running businesses and will make the changes necessary to protect their revenue--as they should.  

One thing never mentioned about the exclusivity vs freedom argument is that High Limit has yet to produce a full slate of races. Therefore they have no leverage in demanding their drivers to race only with them. As Egras has mentioned before, once this changes, you'll get restrictions or there will be so much overlap, it'll only be the Crown Jewels which feature guys from both series. 

USAC continues to be a nice farm system for wanged fully assembled sprint car racing big leagues. 

kidding 

but not really 

The Capi or Front Row Challenge, pose no threat to the Outlaws draw for their premier event in Knoxville from Wednesday to Saturday.  None.  Everyone is in town for the Nats.   

The HL on the other hand, if they don't "tighten their belt" is allowing the possibility of a big show to be scheduled 100-200 miles down the road on an off night.  It doesn't matter if you "THINK" this would not affect the turnout at the HL race, it definitely WOULD affect the turnout at the HL show in a negative manner, especially if fans closer to the non-HL event decided to just wait a day or 2 to save travel.  We can keep pretending they won't do anything to hold their drivers from these potential events down the road.  They have to.  

Your last sentence "I don't know if they really care."  "The track promoting the HL shows might though."  Those go hand in hand.  If the track holding your shows cares, you HAVE to care.  

Outlaws pay more point money.   The “Outlaw” name has a ton of prestige and over 45 years of history.     The Outlaw tour has bigger, more famous races.    Yet somehow, HL got more full-time drivers in their first full season.   There are still 16 full timers.    This season many teams/drivers have cited the freedom and schedule as the reason they follow the HL tour.   

If HL does too much to “tighten their belt” then they risk losing drivers and then the teams could follow the Outlaws,  race true outlaw, or just race regionally.    My opinion is that losing drivers is a much bigger risk and more likely outcome than some promoter piggy backing off the schedule and pulling fans from a sanctioned HL race.    

This thread you started is called “High Limit going beyond 2024” and it has been a good discussion.     So… what changes do you expect HL to make next season ?    HL will likely make the official announcement in about 2 months so we will know soon.

The reason they only race so few races, if you call 60 a few, is so they can hit the big races of WOO and any other races they want when they are not racing HL.

spider i agree with this theory for now - what i and many others are trying to point out is that the charter system will require more money to support and this thought...........

"The reason they only race so few races, if you call 60 a few, is so they can hit the big races of WOO and any other races they want when they are not racing HL."

....most certainly will not generate any more money to support the charter system for the 2026 season.  WOO races  i can 100% guarantee have Zero benefit for the 2026 High Limit Charters teams/system.

I believe they will schedule more midweek shows. This is a huge revenue stream for streaming. I have noticed several midweek races on HL schedule that were not part of the midweek money series and I think it will continue to grow. I think the midweek money series will (and should) expand to about 12-15 shows per year. Probably around the bigger outlaw shows we have mentioned.  I can see this as an advantage for them too should one of those races get canceled because they may be able to race another smoewhere else. This was the case for their 81 speedway was that was rained out. Eight of their teams went and ran Jacksonville. Arguably the race of the year.

First this would be great for sprint car fans on flo more racing but.....

First, I believe the high limit product was good and some young and hungry bucks raced HARD!  Eventhough  my perception between the stand alone WoO and HL - was that HL just seemed to be harder racing (the carrot so to speak earning a charter - wheres WOO Platinum is established) - HL was still despite tough racing struggling for most midweek crowds. 

It is not a coincidence - Chase removed from his signature line/phrase just prior to green "and the grandstands packed" for a reason.

Those will solely argue it is about streaming monies - well if tracks can't get butts in the stands they won't host unless flo ponies up to the tracks and/or HL gives the break/reduced purse/sanction fees for the mid weekers.

Additionally  one could make a very valid arguement WOO has been the most successful traveling series over the last forty years and they have primarily thrived on Friday-Saturday shows.  Some may not recall WOO dipping their toes into the midweek reduced purse/fees shows some of which I attended  at Lincoln - history says it will not work for in Lincoln's case a multitude of reasons -  nor is it sustainable.

Third - if tracks owners/promoters thought midweek shows were/could be the draw some may think they are these sprint car hotbeds such Central PA would run more midweek shows.  Williamsgrove Friday, Port and Lincoln Saturday - with Baps, Selinsgrove trying Sundays not midweek shows.

For more midweek shows to be even considered by less established tracks or tracks in non traditional sprint car hotbeds tracks will most likely require an incentive to take the risk......were other tracks that are established wont even entertain the risk of a non weekend show.

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I keep coming from a latemodel perspective where midweek racing is huge. Castrol, XR, Summernationals, both national tours, and even regional tours schedule midweek races regularly. With streaming can come sponsorship and more growth of the sport. It definitely has to be done right. The XR and HTF series have blossomed due to streaming. They own their own. XR has their hands in alot of pies and HTF is becoming the premier series in the South (which needed a boost). I don't think HL needs to change too much. 55 to 65 races a year with the freedom to race when the series is off or take time off is great. Both latemodel national tours only schedule about this many shows and it seems like who is the next driver or how many drivers will win a million dollars or more. With Flo backing, I can see HL maybe putting on some races themselves. Outlaws already do this as well.

I have just enjoyed all the sprint car chatter and speculation this year. It has been refreshing (when constructive). Sprint car racing had gotten a little mundane, but now even the off season has been a buzz. Thank you sprint car racing.

I keep coming from a latemodel perspective where midweek racing is huge. Castrol, XR, Summernationals, both national tours, and even regional tours schedule midweek races regularly. With streaming can come sponsorship and more growth of the sport. It definitely has to be done right. The XR and HTF series have blossomed due to streaming. They own their own. XR has their hands in alot of pies and HTF is becoming the premier series in the South (which needed a boost). I don't think HL needs to change too much. 55 to 65 races a year with the freedom to race when the series is off or take time off is great. Both latemodel national tours only schedule about this many shows and it seems like who is the next driver or how many drivers will win a million dollars or more. With Flo backing, I can see HL maybe putting on some races themselves. Outlaws already do this as well.

I have just enjoyed all the sprint car chatter and speculation this year. It has been refreshing (when constructive). Sprint car racing had gotten a little mundane, but now even the off season has been a buzz. Thank you sprint car racing.

First this would be great for sprint car fans on flo more racing but.....

First, I believe the high limit product was good and some young and hungry bucks raced HARD!  Eventhough  my perception between the stand alone WoO and HL - was that HL just seemed to be harder racing (the carrot so to speak earning a charter - wheres WOO Platinum is established) - HL was still despite tough racing struggling for most midweek crowds. 

It is not a coincidence - Chase removed from his signature line/phrase just prior to green "and the grandstands packed" for a reason.

Those will solely argue it is about streaming monies - well if tracks can't get butts in the stands they won't host unless flo ponies up to the tracks and/or HL gives the break/reduced purse/sanction fees for the mid weekers.

Additionally  one could make a very valid arguement WOO has been the most successful traveling series over the last forty years and they have primarily thrived on Friday-Saturday shows.  Some may not recall WOO dipping their toes into the midweek reduced purse/fees shows some of which I attended  at Lincoln - history says it will not work for in Lincoln's case a multitude of reasons -  nor is it sustainable.

Third - if tracks owners/promoters thought midweek shows were/could be the draw some may think they are these sprint car hotbeds such Central PA would run more midweek shows.  Williamsgrove Friday, Port and Lincoln Saturday - with Baps, Selinsgrove trying Sundays not midweek shows.

For more midweek shows to be even considered by less established tracks or tracks in non traditional sprint car hotbeds tracks will most likely require an incentive to take the risk......were other tracks that are established wont even entertain the risk of a non weekend show.

.

In my head, I agree with it not costing that much for a weekly operation. I was surprised when I heard Dominic Scelzi had this to say on The Driver's Project podcast.

"I was actually just crunching numbers. To me, I feel like it costs us $6,000 - if we don't tear anything up - a night to drop the back door. That's everything included - that would be wages, that would be engine rebuilds, tires, insurance on the truck and trailer, rent on the shop - the whole shabang - fuel, and everything included is $6,000. And then you look at - you get a sponsor, you're gonna run 65 races a year and you get a sponsor that's $130,000, now you gotta come up with $4,000 a night."

The quote goes on further but he talks in 2021 being the first time the "car" was profitable as a business.He ran 35 nights and made $76,925 according to SprintCarRatings - this may just be purse money and does not include tow/t-shirts/other revenue streams such as sponsorship. Taking his $6,000 would put rough expenses for that year at $210,000, though it's very likely 2021 expenses were much lower. Even after factoring that in, that'd leave a $133K gap for those additional revenue streams to cover. That's also not paying himself any of the winnings and putting every cent back into the car. 

I also wonder if this gets viewed at in a similar vein to some Pro Sports Franchise owners primarily view their teams on their annual balance sheet and not as an asset that has largely increased in value. The types who say they aren't making any money despite owning a multi-billion dollar franchise that was purchased for far, far less. In the comparison here, I'm wondering if these napkin calculations factor in when equipment gets sold down the road - feel like that would be somewhat easy to overlook. 

I know racing sprint cars is really expensive, and I'm almost certain a majority of teams doing so are losing money. I'd be shocked for a weekly team to be spending $4-5K, unless we're really kind of twisting the rules and including operations like the Macri 39M, Brown 21 or similar Outlaw-comparable team. For example, I am far from an expert in Ohio racing, but I just can't see Jeff Ward putting that much into his car for Cap Henry to race. 

Kind of derailed the original point of this post - I'm wondering if the TSR calculation factored in the new tow money. That $800-1000/night would make a world of difference when budgeting out a season.