Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Was I mistaken or is this not a sprint car message board?

Half way through last season, I "assumed" the High Limit would expand beyond a weekly fill-in show to a full time schedule.  Everyone asked me why I was assuming this, and called me insane.  Businesses either grow, or shrink.  That's the only options.  So, I would "assume" High Limit will not be resting on their current success or business model, and they would expand.  The only other option is contract.  They cannot stay the same, and the schedule, and model will change.  What options are there?  Add dates and tracks.  

I'll type slower for ya.    The MYTH that High limit drivers (d r i v e r s, not s e r i e s);are running less races is false and was always known it would be false.  This is based on the FACT that the following drivers have entered the following number of 410 winged sprint car races prior to Friday night.

Gravel 59.           Sweet 60

Macedo 62.        Abreu 65

Schatz 60.           Courtney 63

Kofoid 63.           Marks 68

Scelzi 62.              Day 67

So who is running less????   Now where I went to school, I learned the numbers on the right are not less than the numbers on the left.   

Also reference hotels on the west coast swing.  30 nights out westwould be considered more than 17 nights, hopefully I typed slow enough for you to comprehend that.

I eagerly await your comments again denying those facts above even though it's the second time you have been educated on them. 

You will still argue the facts though because your opinion is again proved false.

I don't think flo gives a shit or sees it as any kind of loss if the high limit guys run elsewhere when they are off. Why would they? The series was started to give racers a lesser schedule with only high paying races, and time off to race where they want, or take the weekend off when they are not scheduled. It's not a loss at all. It's a win/win.

If it actually costs 4-5G to run weekly shows, there would be zero cars at the track. It's expensive for sure but lets not get ridiculous. Last credible numbers I've heard were around half that. 

Donnie's been outlaw since what 1997? He's way up there in their record books for wins and championships and never broken ranks in 27 years. Gee I'm so shocked he didn't leave for high limit. 

Here's an idea. Since none of us know shit about these teams and their finances, lets just let them choose which series to run. I'm sure they all know what is best for their teams.    

Egras, for sake of discussion (not argument), how would you classify the WoO?  Not WRG, just their WoO arm.  Are they they growing or contracting, and what evidence do you have?

I don't know how it's possible for me to have evidence, as I don't have access to their books.  Just going by the eye test, there is a lot of evidence that the WoO have attempted to grow their business, and in many cases have succeeded.  I know I'm not supposed to include WRG, Just the WoO arm, but let's be honest:  Dirtvision was started to showcase the WoO sprint cars.  It doesn't mean they invented streaming, nor does it mean they beat Flo to the punch.  It does however, show they identified a need to get their product in the households interested in following the WoO before other sanctioning bodies were able to take their market.  Has it been a huge success or profitable even?  I have no evidence at all, but this is undoubtably an attempt to grow their business.  Because it continues to stream WoO events, one could assume it is a profitable venture.   ??    

They have also been very good at identifying areas they can draw crowds, and avoiding areas where crowds are tough.  In the areas they have had success drawing crowds, such as Beaver Dam and Wilmot (I've been to multiple events at both and the WoO crowds are always busting at the seams) they have had success in making deals for multi-day shows.  They have also reported multiple record crowds at WoO events over the past 2 years.  If you're someone that is sceptical since they are the ones reporting, that's fine.  However, you can clearly see the crowds are standing room only at many events.  This is also "evidence" of growing a business.  I have not been to a WoO event over the past 5 years that hasn't been packed!

Full-time travelers with the WoO, contrary to popular belief, has been very strong over the past 10 years.  The Platinum deal, although hated by many in the sprint car world, has done its job assuring their drivers would be at all shows when a WoO race was advertised.  You don't have to look too far back in the history of the Outlaws to find years that 6 or 8 cars competed in all events.  Look a little farther back, there are years where 3 or 4 competed in every event.  This year, you should have 12.  In recent years, they've held pretty steady around 10-14 cars.  So, from where they were in the not so distant past, this is also evidence of growth.

If the High Limit wants to grow, they don't necessarily need to add events.  Hell, they could even remove events.  The main goal they will have over the next couple of years will be to take market share from the WoO.  It has to be their goal.  Their goal cannot simply be keep their market share.  They have to try to take market share from the Outlaws, or they won't last.  So, stay tuned.  There will be less and less "freedom" given to drivers who want a share of the $$$ from the High Limit---and rightly so.  It may not come in the form of not allowing them to race other events when off.  It's going to come in the form of scheduling against other big events, with their own events, which is a way to keep your drivers running only your series.  

The WoO has without a doubt made attempts to grow over the past decade, and in many areas has had tremendous success.  I think that is pretty easy to see for someone who attends multiple WoO shows.   For anyone who doesn't attend a WoO race, and simply reads the banter on social media, it's easy to pretty easy to be manipulated into believing the WoO is dying on the vine.  

The problem he has is diffentiating between fact and opinion.  I'll give an example:

Opinion:  Our favorite Hoser is an idiot.  That would be an opinion.

Fact:  3 years ago I camped next to about 20 fans from PA that know Strawser and all 20 of them said he's a complete moron.  Although their feelings for him would be an opinion, it was a fact that these folks told me what they thought of him

I don't know how it's possible for me to have evidence, as I don't have access to their books.  Just going by the eye test, there is a lot of evidence that the WoO have attempted to grow their business, and in many cases have succeeded.  I know I'm not supposed to include WRG, Just the WoO arm, but let's be honest:  Dirtvision was started to showcase the WoO sprint cars.  It doesn't mean they invented streaming, nor does it mean they beat Flo to the punch.  It does however, show they identified a need to get their product in the households interested in following the WoO before other sanctioning bodies were able to take their market.  Has it been a huge success or profitable even?  I have no evidence at all, but this is undoubtably an attempt to grow their business.  Because it continues to stream WoO events, one could assume it is a profitable venture.   ??    

They have also been very good at identifying areas they can draw crowds, and avoiding areas where crowds are tough.  In the areas they have had success drawing crowds, such as Beaver Dam and Wilmot (I've been to multiple events at both and the WoO crowds are always busting at the seams) they have had success in making deals for multi-day shows.  They have also reported multiple record crowds at WoO events over the past 2 years.  If you're someone that is sceptical since they are the ones reporting, that's fine.  However, you can clearly see the crowds are standing room only at many events.  This is also "evidence" of growing a business.  I have not been to a WoO event over the past 5 years that hasn't been packed!

Full-time travelers with the WoO, contrary to popular belief, has been very strong over the past 10 years.  The Platinum deal, although hated by many in the sprint car world, has done its job assuring their drivers would be at all shows when a WoO race was advertised.  You don't have to look too far back in the history of the Outlaws to find years that 6 or 8 cars competed in all events.  Look a little farther back, there are years where 3 or 4 competed in every event.  This year, you should have 12.  In recent years, they've held pretty steady around 10-14 cars.  So, from where they were in the not so distant past, this is also evidence of growth.

If the High Limit wants to grow, they don't necessarily need to add events.  Hell, they could even remove events.  The main goal they will have over the next couple of years will be to take market share from the WoO.  It has to be their goal.  Their goal cannot simply be keep their market share.  They have to try to take market share from the Outlaws, or they won't last.  So, stay tuned.  There will be less and less "freedom" given to drivers who want a share of the $$$ from the High Limit---and rightly so.  It may not come in the form of not allowing them to race other events when off.  It's going to come in the form of scheduling against other big events, with their own events, which is a way to keep your drivers running only your series.  

The WoO has without a doubt made attempts to grow over the past decade, and in many areas has had tremendous success.  I think that is pretty easy to see for someone who attends multiple WoO shows.   For anyone who doesn't attend a WoO race, and simply reads the banter on social media, it's easy to pretty easy to be manipulated into believing the WoO is dying on the vine.  

“It's going to come in the form of scheduling against other big events, with their own events, which is a way to keep your drivers running only your series.”  

So High Limit is going to schedule their own races at the same time as the Knoxville Nationals, Kings Royal, High Banks Hustle, and/or National Open.   Is that what you are predicting  ?

Not Knoxville Nats or King's Royal.  However, I cannot see how they can continue to let the Outlaws have 70 cars in the 2 day June show at Knoxville.  Tune up for Nats?  Sure.  Did it take away from their attendance at shows close to Knoxville in the weeks leading up to that Outlaw show?  It did for me.  I didn't bother going to see them nearby because it was made well known they would all be in Knoxville in June.  That cannot continue to happen.  They cannot continue to take a month off while Outlaw shows bust at the seams.  

As far as any other events considered "crown jewels" they are going to have to make a choice.  Create their own crown jewels, steal away these crown jewels as High Limit events, schedule something against them to mandate their drivers stick with their series, or continue to feed cars and attendance at Outlaw shows.  

Which one is it?  If they're going with choice 4, this should be a short lived series.  

Not Knoxville Nats or King's Royal.  However, I cannot see how they can continue to let the Outlaws have 70 cars in the 2 day June show at Knoxville.  Tune up for Nats?  Sure.  Did it take away from their attendance at shows close to Knoxville in the weeks leading up to that Outlaw show?  It did for me.  I didn't bother going to see them nearby because it was made well known they would all be in Knoxville in June.  That cannot continue to happen.  They cannot continue to take a month off while Outlaw shows bust at the seams.  

As far as any other events considered "crown jewels" they are going to have to make a choice.  Create their own crown jewels, steal away these crown jewels as High Limit events, schedule something against them to mandate their drivers stick with their series, or continue to feed cars and attendance at Outlaw shows.  

Which one is it?  If they're going with choice 4, this should be a short lived series.  

I agree that is one of their big selling points. I don't see any reason to change it. I think a lot of people are missing the point and that was the need for 2 national tours. Neither the Outlaws or HL are set up to sustain 20+ touring teams. 12 to 15 is realistic per series. I heard HL set their series up for 14.  They started with 17 and kept 16 which I have to admit I did not expect. 28 national touring teams toatl wow. The latemodels have 32

I'm curious. Do the two top shelf late model organizations schedule against each other's big races?

I'm curious. Do the two top shelf late model organizations schedule against each other's big races?

I don't know how it's possible for me to have evidence, as I don't have access to their books.  Just going by the eye test, there is a lot of evidence that the WoO have attempted to grow their business, and in many cases have succeeded.  I know I'm not supposed to include WRG, Just the WoO arm, but let's be honest:  Dirtvision was started to showcase the WoO sprint cars.  It doesn't mean they invented streaming, nor does it mean they beat Flo to the punch.  It does however, show they identified a need to get their product in the households interested in following the WoO before other sanctioning bodies were able to take their market.  Has it been a huge success or profitable even?  I have no evidence at all, but this is undoubtably an attempt to grow their business.  Because it continues to stream WoO events, one could assume it is a profitable venture.   ??    

They have also been very good at identifying areas they can draw crowds, and avoiding areas where crowds are tough.  In the areas they have had success drawing crowds, such as Beaver Dam and Wilmot (I've been to multiple events at both and the WoO crowds are always busting at the seams) they have had success in making deals for multi-day shows.  They have also reported multiple record crowds at WoO events over the past 2 years.  If you're someone that is sceptical since they are the ones reporting, that's fine.  However, you can clearly see the crowds are standing room only at many events.  This is also "evidence" of growing a business.  I have not been to a WoO event over the past 5 years that hasn't been packed!

Full-time travelers with the WoO, contrary to popular belief, has been very strong over the past 10 years.  The Platinum deal, although hated by many in the sprint car world, has done its job assuring their drivers would be at all shows when a WoO race was advertised.  You don't have to look too far back in the history of the Outlaws to find years that 6 or 8 cars competed in all events.  Look a little farther back, there are years where 3 or 4 competed in every event.  This year, you should have 12.  In recent years, they've held pretty steady around 10-14 cars.  So, from where they were in the not so distant past, this is also evidence of growth.

If the High Limit wants to grow, they don't necessarily need to add events.  Hell, they could even remove events.  The main goal they will have over the next couple of years will be to take market share from the WoO.  It has to be their goal.  Their goal cannot simply be keep their market share.  They have to try to take market share from the Outlaws, or they won't last.  So, stay tuned.  There will be less and less "freedom" given to drivers who want a share of the $$$ from the High Limit---and rightly so.  It may not come in the form of not allowing them to race other events when off.  It's going to come in the form of scheduling against other big events, with their own events, which is a way to keep your drivers running only your series.  

The WoO has without a doubt made attempts to grow over the past decade, and in many areas has had tremendous success.  I think that is pretty easy to see for someone who attends multiple WoO shows.   For anyone who doesn't attend a WoO race, and simply reads the banter on social media, it's easy to pretty easy to be manipulated into believing the WoO is dying on the vine.  

You're assuming that HL will have to force teams into exclusive contracts to grow their business. I think its more like "the carrot or the stick".... HL giving drivers freedom is the carrot, & forcing them into exclusivity is the stick. HL seems to be choosing the carrot & plenty of drivers seem to like it that way

They tend not to. They also do not schedule against Eldora's big races. This does not mean drivers will race those races, sometimes they race elsewhere or take off (sound familiar). I heard Kyle Larson got the idea about having big sprint car races in midweek from racing in the big midweek latemodel shows.