Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Part of protecting their brand is to be able to charge the local track the fee for showing up to display their brand. Why would track A spend the fee to host the outlaws when they can host an event without the WRG fee and still have the same cars show up?

For a promoter to pay the fee they need to be guaranteed they will get something in return they cant get without that fee.

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

Way way way, to fucking late!!!

SO SO wrong.  When the Outlaws used to race the Beer Town Showdown at the now closed Hales Corners Speedway, they NEVER ran on a weekend, it was always either a Tuesday, or Wednesday.  I always had to work the next day and maybe 95% of the packed grandstands did.  I guess I or we were not average.

Touche'

They may be tapping a target rich niche of people who have too many other demands on their Friday and Saturday nights like kid sports and social and business commitments, but would go to a race during the week within 100 miles if it was there. And they will watch the streams every chance. 

Within hearing distance of Tri City Speedway

Cedar Lake had a one day Outlaw show on Monday night for decades before getting their current weekend dates.  I'm no super fan by any means.  I had a lot of rough Tuesdays at work during that time.  Accounting was boring enough with sleep, looking sharp in an office after a late night wasn't much fun.  

Stan Meissner

Kid's sports------this to me, is the #1 reason the weekly shows, and small tracks are dying across the country.  It's been death by 1000 papercuts.  Everyone wants to blame streaming, the Outlaws, etc, etc, etc.  My buddies stopped going to the races when their kids got into 12 month per year baseball, basketball, football, and hockey.  And now, those kids aren't interested in racing, because their overbearing sports schedules did not allow them to attend a race, and now they have no interest.  They won't be interested in racing when they become adults, and they won't be taking their kids to the races but instead will be signing them up for entire weekends of tournaments in their respective sports as they did as kids.  It's epidemic.  I couldn't have taken my nephew to a race over the past 12 years if he begged me.  He plays baseball for multiple teams in Iowa and they don't dare miss a practice, tournament, or a single Saturday----the entire year----or they will be replaced with someone who will commit.  (and this started when he was 5!)  Basketball---winter sport, right?  Wrong----now the entire summer is full of weekend summer basketball leagues just in case your kid hasn't already wrapped every single waking moment of the weekend in baseball.  Football camps?  Why not.  Not just one though---make sure your kid goes to at least 6-8 football camps.  Soccer.  Flag football----yes, flag football has become the latest to completely take hold of our sport's minded parents.  We have actually had fights and police called at the local flag football league in town and there are literally thousands of people that attend to scream at refs and kids in grade school.  

The number of families actually able to attend the races on a Friday or Saturday night is dwindling fast.  When I attend local sporting events, I have friends walk up to me all the time and say "Are you going to see the Outlaws at Beaver Dam this year? I wish I could go again, but we have a basketball tournament in Minnesota"  "Are you going to Knoxville this August again?  Man that was fun.  I wish we could go again, but we have baseball in Detroit"  

Everyone on this forum is good at pointing a finger at tracks, promoters, the Outlaws and streaming services for the failures of small dirt tracks.  Turns out, the entire reason weekly attendance is down is not race related at all.   

No, we understand you have very little critical thinking skills and can't see past your own nose.

I do think there is a difference between running an annual midweek show with the WoO such as the Silver Cup, versus running a random Tuesday in early April with a new group at Lakeside. I do think they're taking a big risk with that show. But I wish them luck as it would be good to see them return for many years to come.

Cappy classic and Osky are not freebies from what I understand and at this moment in time there are not many teams signed up to run with woo in 23 however it is only mid december so I am sure a few more will sign on we shall see. 

Sonits 1.7 million available but I doubt they ever pay 20 spots back in points. Perhaps in other season with different rules but if there are 15 platinum outlaws they will only pay 15 spots and save a lot of money off of this somewhat deceptive headline.

How many non platinum drivers will race 8 or less races at non sanctioned events. I sèe a loop hole. 3 drivers should get 3 new owners and race 1 ra e with the outlaws. Then park it. Pretty much guaranteed 18 19 and 20 place money.  Would this work?

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

Maybe you're on to something there.  Creative financing:Steve and Sammy sign up, run one race and then sit out the rest of the season.

And if enough people chase the new money Sammy could win the championship

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

The bonus increase is roughly $40,000. Now, there is a $20,000 increase on the point side ... so in totality, it's $65,000 roughly. The weird part is that they raised the point fund like $35,000 total from first through 13th. Second, third, 12th, and 13th are the only positions to get the bump in points. 

Hopefully this will entice a few more teams to run full time! won't need the "Big Rat" , let him go play with dozen or so Hi Limit crap!

The Dirttrackr YouTube channel just did a video crunching numbers and comparing several scenarios.  It was interesting to see this whole thing put into perspective.  Chasing races vs running for the WoO bonus money is nowhere near as lucrative as some are thinking.  When one considers that it can require running twenty more shows to compensate it's not as attractive.  He does a lot better job explaining it than my attempt at summarizing it.  Give it a watch and I think some will be surprised.  

Stan Meissner

You must be too young to remember those "Anybody but Kinser" banners at the Knoxville Nationals. 

ps. What you're doing is called sniveling. That's not a compliment. 

+1 on the https://www.youtube.com/@DIRTRACKR video today breaking down how much the various drivers won in 2022 including the points funds and computing the per-race earnings.  

As this may have been an informative video with good intentions, I find it very shortshighted and alot of apples to oranges comparisions when looking at things.  He tries to right size the conversation, but the lack of normalization when comparing those things really leads to a one sided debate torward WRG. IMO, he seems to lean toward WRG as pointed out by Gravel and Sweet or maybe in this case its just a lack of thinking it all the way through.  

His whole premise is that if you look at the money being pulled in then you should go run WoO because its a larger revenue generating proposition on a nightly basis.  No disagreement with that position.  The point of contention I have with his debate is he only looks at the top line of revenue.  The costs to run a top tier team on the tour has been well documented at $1M or $10K/night roughly.   

As you can see in the table below that means no team in the country made any money following the WoO in 2022.  Basically, KKR had to fund $405K.  I"m sure whatever sponsorships KKR has in placed covered a large portion of the shortfall or maybe all of it??? The reality is the car itself based on performance DIDNT break even nor was it going to.  We all know racing is a money losing game

My point of contention and debate is that if this was an independant owner paying for it all by theirself how long do they stay in the game? Can the afford to lose $500K/year?   

This is why I don't agree with the anti-Marks, Marci, Deitrich sentiment.  This is where it takes a turn against Justin's why they should run the WoO basis.  None of those teams have corporate sponsors.  Do they have weathly owners, yes. Do those cars need to fund themselves as much as possible yes.  They probably spend as much on their cars as anyone in the country. They just don't have the overhead(2 guys on Marks team) vs. 3 guys, Less travel, lodging and meals for team members.   Basically, beyond a few trips a year they sleep in their own beds and only travel 40 to 150 miles round trip each night depending on where they go.   I don't beleive those teams spend the $10K/night.  They are probably close to $7,500 and maybe less.  

So when Marks runs 82 races and its costs him $615K for the year and he made $642K then they broke even! Thats winning! Marci has a short fall of $200K.  I don't think Deitrich spends as much as Marks or Marci. Lets assume he spends $5K per night. Thats $465K and he made $253K. Again, $200K shortfall. 

Lets compare that to Brock Zearfoss.  Lets assume his is on par with his cousin spending wise.  He spent $540K and made $233K. Again, a short fall of $200K.   Deitrich and Marci are better off because they have less wear and tear on their haulers.

The one thing I looked at in my data analysis is what the cars really made on a nightly basis.  I didn't figure in the money/tow money or bonus money. I wanted a normalized look at the numbers to see if it was a better deal to run the outlaws.  You can see Marks out earned Sweet by 55% on a nightly basis for just the night earnings($/Race Earnings)  I get its skewed to Marks favor do to his big Eldora week, but you can't take that away from him.  The dude earned it both nights and didn't even race on Saturday afternoon.   When you look at Marci compared to the WoO teams he is better than Sweet and Schuhart and slightly lower than Gravel and Haud.

Anytime you run a business and these teams are business, you need a metric to see how you are performing.  The metric I looked at was $'s won/mile.  I took the total earnings (Total $/Race)into count as the bonus/tow and other incentives are to help offset those costs.  Marks was 2.5 times better and Marci was 75% better and Dietrich was in line with the WoO travelers.

.Below is a table that lays some things out in a more granular view.  Its not always about revenue.  The teams that travel less are probably doing just fine.  The drivers probably don't sell as much merch, but then they don't have all the cost to pull their trailer around either.  These three drivers sell plenty of stuff in Central Pa. 

I agree obviously he doesn't like Sweet but giving more opportunities to grow the sport is better than bitching about it.