Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I don't think the point of the post was that the Posse should go race the WoO. It was that the WoO drivers should not all run a "true Outlaw" schedule because you basically have to race more and win Crown Jewels to make the money you'd make just running the WoO tour. 

As this may have been an informative video with good intentions, I find it very shortshighted and alot of apples to oranges comparisions when looking at things.  He tries to right size the conversation, but the lack of normalization when comparing those things really leads to a one sided debate torward WRG. IMO, he seems to lean toward WRG as pointed out by Gravel and Sweet or maybe in this case its just a lack of thinking it all the way through.  

His whole premise is that if you look at the money being pulled in then you should go run WoO because its a larger revenue generating proposition on a nightly basis.  No disagreement with that position.  The point of contention I have with his debate is he only looks at the top line of revenue.  The costs to run a top tier team on the tour has been well documented at $1M or $10K/night roughly.   

As you can see in the table below that means no team in the country made any money following the WoO in 2022.  Basically, KKR had to fund $405K.  I"m sure whatever sponsorships KKR has in placed covered a large portion of the shortfall or maybe all of it??? The reality is the car itself based on performance DIDNT break even nor was it going to.  We all know racing is a money losing game

My point of contention and debate is that if this was an independant owner paying for it all by theirself how long do they stay in the game? Can the afford to lose $500K/year?   

This is why I don't agree with the anti-Marks, Marci, Deitrich sentiment.  This is where it takes a turn against Justin's why they should run the WoO basis.  None of those teams have corporate sponsors.  Do they have weathly owners, yes. Do those cars need to fund themselves as much as possible yes.  They probably spend as much on their cars as anyone in the country. They just don't have the overhead(2 guys on Marks team) vs. 3 guys, Less travel, lodging and meals for team members.   Basically, beyond a few trips a year they sleep in their own beds and only travel 40 to 150 miles round trip each night depending on where they go.   I don't beleive those teams spend the $10K/night.  They are probably close to $7,500 and maybe less.  

So when Marks runs 82 races and its costs him $615K for the year and he made $642K then they broke even! Thats winning! Marci has a short fall of $200K.  I don't think Deitrich spends as much as Marks or Marci. Lets assume he spends $5K per night. Thats $465K and he made $253K. Again, $200K shortfall. 

Lets compare that to Brock Zearfoss.  Lets assume his is on par with his cousin spending wise.  He spent $540K and made $233K. Again, a short fall of $200K.   Deitrich and Marci are better off because they have less wear and tear on their haulers.

The one thing I looked at in my data analysis is what the cars really made on a nightly basis.  I didn't figure in the money/tow money or bonus money. I wanted a normalized look at the numbers to see if it was a better deal to run the outlaws.  You can see Marks out earned Sweet by 55% on a nightly basis for just the night earnings($/Race Earnings)  I get its skewed to Marks favor do to his big Eldora week, but you can't take that away from him.  The dude earned it both nights and didn't even race on Saturday afternoon.   When you look at Marci compared to the WoO teams he is better than Sweet and Schuhart and slightly lower than Gravel and Haud.

Anytime you run a business and these teams are business, you need a metric to see how you are performing.  The metric I looked at was $'s won/mile.  I took the total earnings (Total $/Race)into count as the bonus/tow and other incentives are to help offset those costs.  Marks was 2.5 times better and Marci was 75% better and Dietrich was in line with the WoO travelers.

.Below is a table that lays some things out in a more granular view.  Its not always about revenue.  The teams that travel less are probably doing just fine.  The drivers probably don't sell as much merch, but then they don't have all the cost to pull their trailer around either.  These three drivers sell plenty of stuff in Central Pa. 

Really overthinking this...

As this may have been an informative video with good intentions, I find it very shortshighted and alot of apples to oranges comparisions when looking at things.  He tries to right size the conversation, but the lack of normalization when comparing those things really leads to a one sided debate torward WRG. IMO, he seems to lean toward WRG as pointed out by Gravel and Sweet or maybe in this case its just a lack of thinking it all the way through.  

His whole premise is that if you look at the money being pulled in then you should go run WoO because its a larger revenue generating proposition on a nightly basis.  No disagreement with that position.  The point of contention I have with his debate is he only looks at the top line of revenue.  The costs to run a top tier team on the tour has been well documented at $1M or $10K/night roughly.   

As you can see in the table below that means no team in the country made any money following the WoO in 2022.  Basically, KKR had to fund $405K.  I"m sure whatever sponsorships KKR has in placed covered a large portion of the shortfall or maybe all of it??? The reality is the car itself based on performance DIDNT break even nor was it going to.  We all know racing is a money losing game

My point of contention and debate is that if this was an independant owner paying for it all by theirself how long do they stay in the game? Can the afford to lose $500K/year?   

This is why I don't agree with the anti-Marks, Marci, Deitrich sentiment.  This is where it takes a turn against Justin's why they should run the WoO basis.  None of those teams have corporate sponsors.  Do they have weathly owners, yes. Do those cars need to fund themselves as much as possible yes.  They probably spend as much on their cars as anyone in the country. They just don't have the overhead(2 guys on Marks team) vs. 3 guys, Less travel, lodging and meals for team members.   Basically, beyond a few trips a year they sleep in their own beds and only travel 40 to 150 miles round trip each night depending on where they go.   I don't beleive those teams spend the $10K/night.  They are probably close to $7,500 and maybe less.  

So when Marks runs 82 races and its costs him $615K for the year and he made $642K then they broke even! Thats winning! Marci has a short fall of $200K.  I don't think Deitrich spends as much as Marks or Marci. Lets assume he spends $5K per night. Thats $465K and he made $253K. Again, $200K shortfall. 

Lets compare that to Brock Zearfoss.  Lets assume his is on par with his cousin spending wise.  He spent $540K and made $233K. Again, a short fall of $200K.   Deitrich and Marci are better off because they have less wear and tear on their haulers.

The one thing I looked at in my data analysis is what the cars really made on a nightly basis.  I didn't figure in the money/tow money or bonus money. I wanted a normalized look at the numbers to see if it was a better deal to run the outlaws.  You can see Marks out earned Sweet by 55% on a nightly basis for just the night earnings($/Race Earnings)  I get its skewed to Marks favor do to his big Eldora week, but you can't take that away from him.  The dude earned it both nights and didn't even race on Saturday afternoon.   When you look at Marci compared to the WoO teams he is better than Sweet and Schuhart and slightly lower than Gravel and Haud.

Anytime you run a business and these teams are business, you need a metric to see how you are performing.  The metric I looked at was $'s won/mile.  I took the total earnings (Total $/Race)into count as the bonus/tow and other incentives are to help offset those costs.  Marks was 2.5 times better and Marci was 75% better and Dietrich was in line with the WoO travelers.

.Below is a table that lays some things out in a more granular view.  Its not always about revenue.  The teams that travel less are probably doing just fine.  The drivers probably don't sell as much merch, but then they don't have all the cost to pull their trailer around either.  These three drivers sell plenty of stuff in Central Pa. 

Really overthinking this...

Agree - next thing Bear will tell us is how much each driver earned per right rear tire purchased. 

I appreciate the cost per mile analysis. I think many businesses need to have a similar compare point to understand profit or loss.

Who wouldnt prefer $35 to $5 per mile? A huge income isnt the story, the profit is and less expenses make bigger profit. It's a siber and honest look at the season many only speculate on.

I appreciate the cost per mile analysis. I think many businesses need to have a similar compare point to understand profit or loss.

Who wouldnt prefer $35 to $5 per mile? A huge income isnt the story, the profit is and less expenses make bigger profit. It's a siber and honest look at the season many only speculate on.