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Topic: POLL: Would going to a smaller tire make 410 sprint car racing cheaper?
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December 14, 2008 at
11:48:25 PM
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This message was edited on
December 15, 2008 at
03:42:03 PM by cubicdollars
You will need to Login so you can vote!
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Would a smaller tire make 410 racing cheaper?
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| Option's |
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| Yes |
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49 % |
| No |
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51 % |
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Would 410 sprint car racing be cheaper if it went to a smaller tire like the unlimited super late models did?
Dewease thinks the problem is easily solved. "The late models went through this years ago," Dewease said. "They had a big right rear and had all these wedges to put in the car, and it was too easy to go fast. We have the same problem. They went to a narrow tire and unhooked the cars and now, they have to race."
"That's what we need to do. The tires have gotten so good, that we need to go to a smaller tire." - Lance Dewease
"I didn't see a big problem when we had to put on the 16" (wide right rear tire) for the ASCS show. I think 16" is a move in the right direction, but it plain and simply is not enough. The tire companies will probably freak out on this, but I believe we need to cut the left rear width back to around 12" to help take some of the drive out of the car. Less tire, less power needed." - Jeff Swindell
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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December 15, 2008 at
01:03:57 AM
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it would make the racing better. smaller meaning narrower.
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December 15, 2008 at
04:45:51 PM
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Anyone know what the official argument against
narrower tires is?
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December 15, 2008 at
05:28:29 PM
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This message was edited on
December 16, 2008 at
02:13:59 AM by cubicdollars
Reply to:
Posted By: new-parts on December 15 2008 at 04:45:51 PM
Anyone know what the official argument against
narrower tires is?
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The main arguments I've gotten over the years are... It wouldn't do anything anyway, or the complete opposite that they'd be too hard to drive and they'd be too slow. I've also been told that wheel halves ($200) cost too much to replace. I don't believe any of it. I think our racing would end up being way better and cheaper. I also think a 360 could run right with a 410 at a lot of race tracks across the country.
In the end, though, it was Dave Blaney's words that were repeated to describe where the sport needs to go. "It doesn't need to be 410 racing," he said. "It doesn't need to be 360 racing. It needs to be Sprint Car racing."
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=225963&F=N
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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December 15, 2008 at
06:45:04 PM
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Back in the 1970s Bob Trostle, car builder, owner, worldwide racer told the officials, "Ya gotta stop savin' me money, I can't afford it." That was when they had gear rules, tire diameter rules, air pressure rules and who knows what all else.
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December 15, 2008 at
08:44:01 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: doublenuthin on December 15 2008 at 06:45:04 PM
Back in the 1970s Bob Trostle, car builder, owner, worldwide racer told the officials, "Ya gotta stop savin' me money, I can't afford it." That was when they had gear rules, tire diameter rules, air pressure rules and who knows what all else.
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How come ASCS limited late models aren't taking over the country then...lol?
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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December 16, 2008 at
08:56:57 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: doublenuthin on December 15 2008 at 06:45:04 PM
Back in the 1970s Bob Trostle, car builder, owner, worldwide racer told the officials, "Ya gotta stop savin' me money, I can't afford it." That was when they had gear rules, tire diameter rules, air pressure rules and who knows what all else.
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Good point, racing really fell apart during the 70's when all the big names like Kinser and Wolfgang got their starts, as well as the fact that sprint car racing was the most popular form of dirt racing in the world. Darn those rules. It works so much better today now that we are driving those low buck guys out of the sport!
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December 17, 2008 at
11:34:07 AM
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This message was edited on
December 17, 2008 at
11:41:37 AM by sidewayz
Did I read that right, were a tire is going to make sprint car racing cheaper??? Ok lets step back into time for a minute, there was once the rule you could use as many tires in the night as you like..... Now we dont have that rule, so I beg the question, did that make sprint car racing cheaper? The only thing limiting a rear tire will do, is make the racing less exciting.... We are talking 410 sprint cars here, these are the baddest machines around....When these cars were made, they were made to be extreeme, limiting that, would only set this sport back....This sounds like something more for a 360........
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December 17, 2008 at
11:40:20 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: cubicdollars on December 15 2008 at 05:28:29 PM
The main arguments I've gotten over the years are... It wouldn't do anything anyway, or the complete opposite that they'd be too hard to drive and they'd be too slow. I've also been told that wheel halves ($200) cost too much to replace. I don't believe any of it. I think our racing would end up being way better and cheaper. I also think a 360 could run right with a 410 at a lot of race tracks across the country.
In the end, though, it was Dave Blaney's words that were repeated to describe where the sport needs to go. "It doesn't need to be 410 racing," he said. "It doesn't need to be 360 racing. It needs to be Sprint Car racing."
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=225963&F=N
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And why do we want a 360 running with a 410? Dont we see ever year that the best 360 drivers cant run with the 410 guys during August? This sport is about advancement...... And that doesnt mean taking a 410 and making it competitive with a 360.......
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December 17, 2008 at
12:14:10 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: sidewayz on December 17 2008 at 11:40:20 AM
And why do we want a 360 running with a 410? Dont we see ever year that the best 360 drivers cant run with the 410 guys during August? This sport is about advancement...... And that doesnt mean taking a 410 and making it competitive with a 360.......
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The truth is we wouldn't even be talking about it if the 410s weren't so expensive that the 360s already replaced 90% of them. A lot of people also think they are too hooked-up regardless however. They lay rubber down too easy and destroy race tracks. Unhooking them would kill two birds with one stone.
Terry McCarl
FlatOut: Is local 410 racing in as bad a shape as it seems, with tracks dropping them and car counts falling?
McCarl: I think it is in really bad shape. I live around Knoxville so it is hard to see. The local tracks need to quit worrying about running with the Outlaws. Stop it…
FlatOut: What about the 360s? You raced them quite a bit last year. I know you don't think that is the answer.
McCarl: 360s are not the answer. I hate them. I don't care what anyone says, it takes the driver out of it…
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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December 17, 2008 at
05:45:14 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: cubicdollars on December 17 2008 at 12:14:10 PM
The truth is we wouldn't even be talking about it if the 410s weren't so expensive that the 360s already replaced 90% of them. A lot of people also think they are too hooked-up regardless however. They lay rubber down too easy and destroy race tracks. Unhooking them would kill two birds with one stone.
Terry McCarl
FlatOut: Is local 410 racing in as bad a shape as it seems, with tracks dropping them and car counts falling?
McCarl: I think it is in really bad shape. I live around Knoxville so it is hard to see. The local tracks need to quit worrying about running with the Outlaws. Stop it…
FlatOut: What about the 360s? You raced them quite a bit last year. I know you don't think that is the answer.
McCarl: 360s are not the answer. I hate them. I don't care what anyone says, it takes the driver out of it…
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Bingo! And the other 10% are pricing themselves out of the market, as far as what the owners can afford to spend on them, what the sponsors can afford to support them, what the tracks can afford to pay them, and what the fans will be willing to pay to watch them.
It's all fine and well, to say this is no problem and nothing needs to change. That's been going on for quite a while now, and look where that got the sport.
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December 17, 2008 at
05:54:29 PM
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I started my sprint car with a set of front tires on the rear end this summer and thought how cool it might be if a sprint division has a 8 or 9" tire rule like some modified classes! Just thinkin' aloud....
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December 17, 2008 at
06:50:59 PM
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2008 World of Outlaw Late Model Tire Rule:
12.17 Tires
a) All tires may have a maximum size of eleven inches (11”) by twenty
nine inches (29”) by fifteen inches (15”), unless otherwise specified.
b) Maximum circumference, ninety three inches (93”), unless
otherwise stated.
c) Maximum width (sidewall to sidewall) sixteen and three quarters
inches (16.75”). No Tolerance. Tire Hoops will be used, and must
pass freely over tire.
d) Open tire rule unless advertised for special or joint events.
e) Max tire hoop width is sixteen and three quarters inches (16.75”).
f) Tire rule for an event may be amended per technical bulletin.
g) Illegal tires will result in disqualification from the event.
h) No defacing or refacing of tire lettering permitted.
i) No tire softening permitted.
j) Changing, vulcanizing, or altering tires is strictly prohibited. Penalty
may include up to 6 month suspension from any UMP or WoO
sanctioned event and the loss of all points for the season.
http://63.76.74.109/~/media/PDFs/2008_WoOLM_Rulebook_Final.ashx
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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December 20, 2008 at
12:16:39 PM
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Cubicdollars the late model people seen this same problem 20+ years ago and a lot of drivers and owners kept telling the promoters and series owners at the time they were nuts and were going to kill late model racing with all those rule changes.
It has now grown into one of the strongest most competitive divisions in the USA where the guy with a $12k 358cid engine can run with and beat the WoO/Lucas Oil hotshots and there $35k 430cid or larger engines.
They seen what was happening and where it was going and had the brass to stand up and change the rules before it was too late.
The powers that be in the 410 sprint car world need to open there eyes and admit there is a major problems before it's too late.
The 410 sprint division is growing smaller every year with drivers and or team owners throwing in the towel because the costs are killing them.
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December 20, 2008 at
12:36:44 PM
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I have no problem going to a 16" right rear tire limit, but I really don't think that is the answer. The real problem is the cost of the motors and rebuilds. There needs to be a compression limit put on the motors and possibly spec heads & injection.
I would like to see a flat foil wing with no wicker bill (regular size sail panels), 16" right rear tires with two compounds to choose from (hard & harder), a compression limit on the motors, a spec head & injection (maybe a 2 3/4 max), no cockpit adjustable shocks or weight jackers, and NO FUEL STOPS! This would be a good start that would not change the current "look" of 410 sprint cars and would only reduce the speeds just slightly while at the same time significantly reducing the overall yearly costs.
410's still need to be the "premier" division, thus the larger cc heads & larger injections, but they need to have limits. Start by controling the major costs, engines & tires, and you will be well on your way to saving the sport.
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December 20, 2008 at
01:31:00 PM
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I honestly believe if they unhooked the winged sprint cars enough a 700 hp ASCS 360 would be able to run right with a 900 hp WoO 410 at a majority of 3/8s mile race tracks across the country. Jeff Swindell already beat the All Stars with a 360 the way it is. We may have a wing unlike the late models, but our cars still weigh half as much. It would be the biggest step in the right direction they could make regardless. Most of our premier promoters want to do what is right by the sport and WoO management seems willing to go along with them out of necessity. It is our top race teams that vehemently oppose such change. They have unlimited resources at their disposal and don't want the rules of the game changed at any cost. It's one of the reasons Kinser and clan called foul, and ran off and tried to start the NST. And even top local runners like Rahmer successfully fought the no cockpit shock adjuster rule this year in the East. Until there is a changing of the guard to more open minded stars progress is going to be difficult. The only bright spot is there are some superstars like Donny Schatz on the horizon who do at least seem open to discussion.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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December 20, 2008 at
01:44:32 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: D1RT on December 20 2008 at 12:16:39 PM
Cubicdollars the late model people seen this same problem 20+ years ago and a lot of drivers and owners kept telling the promoters and series owners at the time they were nuts and were going to kill late model racing with all those rule changes.
It has now grown into one of the strongest most competitive divisions in the USA where the guy with a $12k 358cid engine can run with and beat the WoO/Lucas Oil hotshots and there $35k 430cid or larger engines.
They seen what was happening and where it was going and had the brass to stand up and change the rules before it was too late.
The powers that be in the 410 sprint car world need to open there eyes and admit there is a major problems before it's too late.
The 410 sprint division is growing smaller every year with drivers and or team owners throwing in the towel because the costs are killing them.
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what are the weight limits for the various c.i.d. sizes and for big blocks?
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December 20, 2008 at
02:16:58 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: wvsprinter on December 20 2008 at 12:36:44 PM
I have no problem going to a 16" right rear tire limit, but I really don't think that is the answer. The real problem is the cost of the motors and rebuilds. There needs to be a compression limit put on the motors and possibly spec heads & injection.
I would like to see a flat foil wing with no wicker bill (regular size sail panels), 16" right rear tires with two compounds to choose from (hard & harder), a compression limit on the motors, a spec head & injection (maybe a 2 3/4 max), no cockpit adjustable shocks or weight jackers, and NO FUEL STOPS! This would be a good start that would not change the current "look" of 410 sprint cars and would only reduce the speeds just slightly while at the same time significantly reducing the overall yearly costs.
410's still need to be the "premier" division, thus the larger cc heads & larger injections, but they need to have limits. Start by controling the major costs, engines & tires, and you will be well on your way to saving the sport.
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they have a class for all that now. it is called ascs. if that is what folks want to do then that is great, but what about the folks that want something else? there are already multiple "spec" classes and orgiazations over the country. hell the woo is a freaking spec series. if you want to race a bit more economical variation of sprint cars there already are chioces out there.
with all due respect to cubic (RESPECT? wtf? well it is christmas!) drivers and motor builders will ALWAYS want more HP. will unhooking the cars really help that? i don't know.
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December 20, 2008 at
02:23:54 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: team wright-one on December 20 2008 at 01:44:32 PM
what are the weight limits for the various c.i.d. sizes and for big blocks?
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No special weights as far as c.i.d. in the super/open lates.
#2300 aluminum block #2250 steel block.
Big blocks in the super lates are pretty rare.
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December 20, 2008 at
02:30:08 PM
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This message was edited on
December 20, 2008 at
02:34:08 PM by cubicdollars
Reply to:
Posted By: team wright-one on December 20 2008 at 02:16:58 PM
they have a class for all that now. it is called ascs. if that is what folks want to do then that is great, but what about the folks that want something else? there are already multiple "spec" classes and orgiazations over the country. hell the woo is a freaking spec series. if you want to race a bit more economical variation of sprint cars there already are chioces out there.
with all due respect to cubic (RESPECT? wtf? well it is christmas!) drivers and motor builders will ALWAYS want more HP. will unhooking the cars really help that? i don't know.
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Everyone would love to see the sprint cars unlimited like the late models if it were economically feasible; racers and race fans alike. That is why I have always fought so hard for a tire rule, because the entire country is heading in the other direction instead with ASCS.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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