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Click here, for williamsgrove.com link Would 410 Sprint Cars be cheaper running a smaller tire?

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

After talking to the best motor builder in my area Paul Kistler the cost of a new ASCS 360 is $38,000 the cost of a new 410 is $41,000. ASCS is way cheaper, NOT! ASCS is SPEC racing.

Not current, but still gives you a pretty good idea of the difference. Jeff Creasy and Blaine Heimbach still aren't running 410s regularly five years later. Creasy is the car owner that gave Stevie Smith Jr his start.

(Excerpt taken from article Gary Wright - ASCS Champs '05 in the Feb. 2006 FlatOut)

It was full time on the ASCS trail, starting in 2003, when the NCRA and 410 race schedules were either slim or just too far away. "I couldn't afford to run a 410 (full time) anymore," he said, "I was up at Wesmar a couple of weeks ago, and we figured it was three times more costly to freshen a 410 motor than a 360, and the initial cost is about twice as much. The beauty of the heads is that what you had in 1995, you can still run now." His ASCS wins in 2005 included one on a motor with 22 nights of racing on it without a refresh and a win with a motor constructed in 1995.

(Excerpt taken from Bruce Ellis article CREASY in the May 2004 SprintCar and Midget.)

If Creasy is going to help the talented Heimbach advance, the next logical step would be the 410 division in Pennsylvania - specifically Williams Grove Speedway. That is if any logic can be found when it comes to running motors that cost more than $30,000 in races that pay $3,000 to win.

That's where most of the expense lies - in the motors.

It's not like a good 358 is cheap. According to Hall of Fame mechanic and engine builder Davey Brown, he can get upwards of $18,000 for a 358. A URC motor can go for approximately $21,000. A 410 that can be competitive at Williams Grove? Davey says he charges between $32,000 and $34,000, but he knows some of his competitors are getting $40,000.

That's just the initial cost. A major expense comes in maintenance. Freshing costs between $2000 and $3000 whether it's a 358 or a 410. (Our top teams I'm told pay upwards of $4500 due to diamond cut piston rings, gas ported fly-weight pistons with ceramic coating and ultra-light wrist pins, composite pushrods, etc...) That's if it doesn't need any new parts like pistons and cranks. A 410 has to go back to the builder after five to seven races. Sure you can go 10 or 12, but according to Davey you'll be losing power. A 358 with a 10 3/4:1 compression rule and smaller wings will go 20 races between rebuilds. That's nearly a whole season for most teams.

Still the 410 division, especially at the Grove, is where every serious racer in Pennsylvania would like to be. Anybody who tells you otherwise either can't cut it or can't afford it.

"This is the last driver (Heimbach) I'll have," Creasy says. "Wherever he goes I'll go. As a sponsor or team manager or whatever. But we don't know what to do. I've been to this point two other times and now I have to make that decision again…The last two weeks he got his feet wet racin' with Rahmer and guys that he looked up to, which is more fun for a kid. But it's a costly endeaver to attempt to do that."

So, will Creasy and Heimbach continue to dominate the 358s or start over with the big boys?

"I don't know," Creasy says. "I just don't know."

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Dave Argabright "Christmas Tree" Story

(Excerpt from a Dave Argabright anonymous interview, The Ever Changing Face Of Sprint-Car Racing, in the May 5th, 2004 National Speed Sport News.)

We stood on top of the hauler, gazing down at the scene. It was the usual busy routine - cars being pushed towards the staging lane, mechanics making last minute adjustments with a crowd of onlookers filtering through the lines like ants.

"The sport is changing," he said, to nobody in particular.

He has been a part of all this for a long time, and he has seen a lot. He doesn't drive anymore, but he's still heavily involved in the sport. What he says is still important.

"I don't know where all the money is coming from," he said, looking across the way at all the big trailers. All the cars looked nice, with sharp paint jobs and shiny wheels. Bright lights from each of the trailers spilled onto the ramp and the surrounding area, combining to make the pit area very bright.

I told him that I've wondered that for a long time, about where the money is coming from.

"It seems like it's way beyond the average guy today," he said. "It's serious, serious money. I'm not sure it's good, seeing people spend this kind of money. I mean, God, you go through a couple of motors in a year, and what's that, $40,000?

"Racing has always been filled with the working man. But how does a working man find money like that?"

I really don't know I told him.

And then he laughed. "You know, when I raced, I'd spend my last dollar if that's what it took to keep the car going. One time, we were so broke we couldn't afford a Christmas tree. So my wife hocked some old jewelry she didn't wear anymore, and we used that to buy a tree. We didn't have any presents, but at least we had a tree."

"But we always had money to go to the races. I could always keep my car going. Then we had kids, and I swore it wouldn't be like that anymore."

Are you sad that you quit and all?

"Nah, not really. I'm still involved, so that helps," he said. "But for me to put up the money to keep a car going today, man, I'd have to think really hard about that."

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

     One thing about Late Models they are easyer to drive and not as fast . A first time racer would go Late Model because it is safer . People just dont start there first race in a Sprint  Car. And older Racers,, it gives them the chance to keep racing at a older age. And alot of places that race dont have Sprint Cars for you to start in,,,or even run them..  There are alot of Racers in there 50s racing at local tracks in   IMCA  type Modifieds  and Late Models. 

    You dont see alot of racers in there 50s running Sprint Cars unless they been around several years

Win as if you are use to it.And lose as if you enjoyed 
it for a change.Its hard to get to the top and alot 
harder to stay there.

Good point,,,if anyone remembers Tulsa Speedway in the 60s and 70s they had a 305 limit on Engine and that class lasted a long time and made for some great racing. It forst all the best in the area to run the class and made for some great racing. Alot of tracks today have 5 or 6 classes . Back in the 60s and 70s they had 2 or 3 classes. It can only help if there are less classes to run . That means more cars per class .. It might slow the cars down a bit but it will make for better wheel to wheel racing and put more better drivers against each other.. And the tracks dont have to divide the money to 2 classes. They can pay more for lower finishes and bring B and C Features back every night.

Tires are the biggest difference in racing today . And for sure a big expense. I think alot can be learned at how Tulsa Speedway and 81 Speedway in Wichta made there classes last so long...

Woundnt it be great to see all the top drivers in the 410 with all the top drivers in 360 head to head every week. .In the 60s and 70s that is the way it was. Maybe the sport needs to look back at that time of racing to get some problems fixes

Also look at B Mods class that has took off in the last 2 years,the A Mods got out of hand on cost .We need to do something to keep to the car count up in each class.And control cost so people with more money cant control each class.

Car owners should not be fighting cost.The more they fight cost means that there will be less competitive cars to run up front,that is what has made the B MOD class take off in the last 2 years.

Win as if you are use to it.And lose as if you enjoyed 
it for a change.Its hard to get to the top and alot 
harder to stay there.

Great discussion. I have no answers, but want to put in my two cents worth. The tire rule would change everything. More hp will not help a thing. It will just blow off the rear skins if they are smaller. More savings because there will be less strain on parts. no need for super expensive partrs, research, testing and development. I have to think it will change everything. The 360 vs 410 will rage on forever, but a smaller rr will level the playing field. It will definitely get the elbows up. (dang, I hate when that happens)

Larry

"Crying shame you can't even try to race these cars anymore without worrying about sealing up a tire" Cubic Dollars 8.12.2007

I wonder if a looser, smaller , harder RR might seal up faster than what we currently have, is it possible more races might be processions around the cushion because no one can run the bottom if there is a cushion.

The late models run an 11" wide tire and you don't hear many complaints out of them. All I've ever wanted to see is the sprint cars adopt a similar tire rule to the late models. I've never even really been that worried about compound, a smaller tire will automatically necessitate a little harder compound, especially with a one tire per night rule in effect locally. Picking the right tire brand and compound is one of the finer arts of dirt track racing. A simple tire hoop rule like the late models might be all that is needed to turn the sport around. It's what they should try first anyway. Jeff Swindell beat the All-Stars with a 360 as it is. If they made the WoO late model rule read for around a ~15"x100" right rear, and a ~13" wide left rear (modified tire), it would most likely do the trick for the sprint cars at most small race tracks. A few days of track testing would tell the tale. At big joints like Eldora or Knoxville further steps might need to be taken if they really wanted to be able to run the 360s with the 410s at special events...possibly a bolt-on weight penalty like the big block modifieds.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Going to a smaller tire and then eventually to a compound rule is what saved late model racing in this country.

Back in the days of huge tires, wedge cars, and sideboards late models were wicked fast and hooked up. When they took the downforce away (smaller wing, no wing, etc..) and went to a smaller tire it forced the racers to drive and kept engine costs down because you don't need as much HP to get around.

I don't think the argument that late models are easier to drive is really that valid. The reason there are older drivers involved is due in large to the shear amount of late models and the cost compared to sprint cars.

I hear from a lot of late model guys that they would love to be in a sprint car but the cost is just too much.

One thing leads to another and if sprint car racing is to survive people better wake up and make some changes or this trend will continue.

Take the wings off, harden up the compound, reduce the the rr. Actually prep the tracks. No more rubber down, maybe we could actually see some competitive racing where driving skill is at a premium, cars going sideways against the cushion. Much of this talk about wing and engine size, tires, etc. is really about people protecting there own self-interest as opposed to the overall health of the sport.

   I think that wings have saved some lives and bad injury..  A wing takes away the hard impact with the roll cage.  In the mid 60s early 70s they killed some good drivers in Topeka and KC in the SuperMod Sprints,,some looked like Sprints some didnt. Most ran 350 to 383 engines and were 1500LBS.They were FAST.  The Tulsa cars were 305 1800 LBS and it was a great class.They came out with the March Racing tire in the mid 60s ,,at Tulsa it hooked up some of them to goodin the 305 engine.

   I think that today if the Wings are took off the 400 Sprints we may go into a period were we kill and badly hurt driver untill they get it right   .You got to admit a wing does slow down a fliping car. I seen them flip cars 300 ft or more in the  mid 60s and 70s.. You dont see that alot now days. And the softer tires slow down  a fliping car also..

  Anything that will stop direct contact with the Roll Cage in a fliping car is good for safety.. And with no wing and a harder tire we will find out who the real race drivers are...

Win as if you are use to it.And lose as if you enjoyed 
it for a change.Its hard to get to the top and alot 
harder to stay there.

(from Brad Doty column in the January 2009 SprintCar & Midget)

It was an eye-opener to some when they compared the right rear tire of a late model to that of a sprint car (at the Vault World Finals).

The right rear tire of the late model is considerably smaller in circumference and width. The late model also weighs twice as much as a sprint car, but yet, uses half the tire.

At one time the late models had wedge bodies and plexiglas wings and sideboards all over them and they also used a big soft floppy right rear tire. When they finally outlawed the wedge bodies and went to the harder and smaller tire, the racing arguably got a whole lot better. Those who have been advocating for smaller and harder tires for sprint cars say that something could be learned from the late models.

I've had an ongoing argument/debate with a couple of drivers who want to solely blame the racetrack when, on occasion, the racing isn't what we hope it would be. If it weren't for the late model race, where they were passing, I'm sure those guys would still say it was the fault of the racetrack and that it "was too fast" and not slick enough for the sprint cars. But the argument goes right out the window when the late models were able to pass and put on a good race on the same racetrack.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

there is some interesting points in this discussion, but, JMO , a 410 is top of the line, a WoO 410 is the king of the hill , although I like the ASCS 360 deal it will fit the pocket book of the common racer (in the long run), Everything has a "next step" and the spongy large tired winged 410 is the graduates course so to speek, Im not sure dropping tire size is going to aid anything (immediatly) when Nascrap went to the COT everyone was frustrated, it sucked, now its coming around and there is little talk of the transformation of chassis ect, I feel the WoO (or large funded ) 410 teams are on the edge of development they will scale every fence thrown in front of them, money is no object , Im very interested in what they change to go faster, can I (the common racer) compete with the large marketable 410 teams ? hell no! do I cry myself to sleep? hell no! Its just the evolution of this sport taking rubber away just might hurt equipment and drivers, as far as "elbows up" racing the people looking for a "elbows up" driver/car proubly havent sat in one of these things in a long time, Im not trying to point fingers ,but, that phrase "the older I get the faster I was" comes to mind, although todays car is much better handeling than yesterdays, thats just how far we have come, I just happen to like it? today and yesterday is all good, but, throwing a handeling problem at the cars today proubly isnt the answer, again JMO

I would respectfully disagree. Today's cars are a far cry from those of the past when it comes to safety, and certainly there is tremendous improvement in driver safety equipment. The reality is this is sometimes a dangerous sport and the safety realm is a far more complicated issue than just saying a wing makes for more safety.

Captrat "basking in the sun on the island of Bequia, but looking forward to being on land for Indiana Sprint Week"

A majority of top drivers in the sport openly agree that they have a much better shot of racing their way to the front once the track slicks off, in fact it has almost become a necessity. Going to a smaller tire is easier than trying to prepare a perfectly competitive race track. Rubber also ruins clay, tracks have to bring in new clay which is expensive more frequently than in the past. The pros of freeing up the sprint cars with a smaller tire like the late models far outweigh the cons. The only drawback would be the cars would be a few tenths slower, but again many drivers say they need that to happen so they can race anyway.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

You racers have it allllllllllllllll wrong, messing with tires it not the answer. The real answer should be RESTRICTOR PLATES !!!!!!!! These have done wonders to the NASCAR races. It is so great watching 40 cars follow each other around in formation, lap after lap. Why you can get up, go the frig, come back 10 minutes later and they are pretty much the same, oh wait, you might miss out on the BIG ONE, so just move the frig next to recliner. Oh ya, make the fuel cell smaller too, then they'll have to pit during their heat race making it a team effort too. Fans will love it.

Maybe the sprint cars should have plate holes as big as a soft ball to make it competitive.

We already have that, it's called ASCS. Most fans would rather be able to watch unlimited super sprints again one day.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com