Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

All the talk about the World of Outlaws and High Limit boils down to talk about money, how much and who's going to get it. That's no different than the talk about the cost of sprint car racing that probably started when the 2nd ever sprint car hit the track.

That which must be mentioned in sprint car talk is cost containment! It's like Mark Twain is quoted as saying about the weather, "everybody talks about the weather, but nobody ever does anything about it". Instead of  trying to raise the payouts for top teams- more than likely by raising ticket prices- why not put that same amount of effort into cost containment for every car in the field?

For example, why does that 410 motor cost $70,000? What would it take to make the relative cost of a 410 motor more like $50,000? 410 sprint car racing has 2 major leagues, half a dozen minor leagues, and about 14 weekly tracks. That's a lot of smart people that could probably come up with ideas to contain costs. How much easier would it be to field a car, if the cost to race dropped by $1000 per night? If nobody worries about cost containment, 410 sprint car racing will continue to shrink until it's gone.

Great post

Engine cost can be reduced by having a rule stating, No engine changes after time trials. 

They say the cheapest HP is cubic inches. How about doing away with 410 cubic inch limit. Make the wing a little smaller and you only hook up so much power. On another note sprint car engines cost $70,000 because customers will pay it to win.

first Murphy well stated.

Longtimetime fan - AMEN 100%

I second this.  Great questions Murphy.  Longtimefan---Amen 100% as well.  

Now, down to Murphy's question.  I brought this up a few years ago.  I want to be very, very clear on this:  I don't support this at all, so don't start roasting me thinking I support it.  I'm simply stating there are only 2 ways to control the cost of motors. 

1.  Motor claim.  I want to be VERY clear--I DON'T WANT A MOTOR CLAIM--I AM OPPOSED.  However, this is one way to control the cost of motors.  Any car in the top-10, can claim the motor from anyone on the podium for $_________ (set amount here) and if refused, the owner/driver keeps the motor but forfeits all points and money for the night.  Once again, before you all shoot the messenger, I think 410 racing should be free of this rule.  But, since we're all complaining about the weather, and never do anything about it-----this is one way to do something about it.  It would have to be a car that finishes in the top-10, because we can't have cars finishing 24th running a worn out 360 claiming motors.  

2.  Other option---crate motors.  Once again, I DON'T WANT CRATE MOTORS---I AM OPPOSED.  But, the question was asked.  And this would do it.  Have some "economy" 410 motors quoted by various manufacturers, and have a committee approve numerous motors on a 2 or 3 year cycle, with set costs spelled out by the manufacturer.  

I don't want either of these, but if you want to get serious about bringing down motor costs, both of these options would do it.  I don't think the 410 class is the place for this, and I have no skin in the game, so I give no craps how much money teams are willing (not forced) to spend on motors.  So all I did was answer a question.  

the board has been enjoyable to read.

Egras - like you I agree that you listed two tangible ways to cut costs and like you i personally don't like either....

As far as motors let them build them from stock or the proverbial "junkyard" steel blocks or the old 454 chevy big block.

From a different angle:

IMHO the real reason for the insane Cubic Dollars madness is the cars have become so hooked up/locked down that people can buy more horsepower to win....

unhook the cars - i can think of two ways:

1. less square feet of wing.
2. smaller and harder right rears.

Current motor and potential cost saving (less frequent rebuilds):

a compression change....I do believe some drivers, owners,  and crew chiefs have discussed enforcing a better compression rule - help here i get it backwards 12 to 1 and 15 to 1 i think 410's are currently 12 to 1 and people are suggesting 15 to 1.  

i would love to hear others thoughts.....

one "expense savor" in quotes because i think it is laughable was the elimination of shock adjustment cables (USAC has them)....I say go to a standard shock and let them adjust - the cables are cheap...

I've heard that before about the bigger cubic inch engines, but I wonder if that holds true anymore. I think back to the mid-seventies and seeing backyard built late models with 454 cu chevies that were bore out to something like 467 and 481(?) cubic inches. I recall one car running what was always refered to as a 500 cubic inch Cadillac engine. I'm sure most of those junkyard engine blocks are gone. If you could find one, some big-budget team could always have a custom built 500 ci engine custom built- kinda like the current "chevy-based" 410's. 

Someone is always going to pay more to go faster. The key would be to make a $70,000 motor no faster than a $50,000 engine. That's the challenge.

In a way, you're pretty much describing Race Saver / IMCA sprint car engines. That class of sprint cars provides some pretty good racing, but usually only on smaller tracks.

I differ with you on giving a hoot about how much the wealthy teams spend. Reason being, if costs keep increasing at the current rate, local 410 racing will evaporate, and the ability of WoO, H-L and other groups to have enough cars to put on a race gets dicey.

I'm not a gear-head, but I wonder if you're onto something with the compression. I read somewhere that Bobby Allen won the Knoxville Nationals the year that engine builders had figured out how to run higher compression motors, but hadn't figured out how to keep them from blowing up, or blowing all the oil out.

I think of top-fuel dragsters. They seem to have engines like time-bombs, wound so tight that a trip down the strip is just a delay of the ineveitable motor blowing up. Sprint cars seem to be heading down that path as the time between rebuilds gets closer and closer each year. Is it the high compression that does that?

"If costs keep increasing at the current rate" could be applied to about any 10 year period of racing over the past 100 years.  If I remember correctly, an expensive 410 motor 30 years ago, back in 1995, was around $25,000-30,000.  Today,  a good 410 is in the range of $60,000-70,000.  I hate to say it, but that is right in line with inflation.   2.5-3.0% annual increase.  I really don't find that to be all that out of line. 

You could argue the purses have not kept up with inflation, but:  1.  I think overall purses have increased more than most have given credit for when you look at winnings and points payouts.  (I know everyone wants to base everything on the fact that the King's Royal paid $50,000 to win for decades, but that is one race)  2.  The money to get your company name on one of those haulers has gone up significantly.  

It's all relative.