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Topic: 410s going to 16" d20 ASCS Hoosier tIre?
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Page 4 of 7 of 124 replies
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October 13, 2012 at
07:50:19 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: kooks on October 12 2012 at 08:43:33 AM
How long do wheels last before needing to be replaced?
Assuming it is not involved in a wreck of any sort or tire failure.
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Anyone ???????
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October 13, 2012 at
07:52:00 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: kooks on October 10 2012 at 11:15:57 PM
How often do you currently put new tires on the car?
How much do they cost? L rear? R rear?
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Care to answer Pimpmobile????
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October 13, 2012 at
01:35:17 PM
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We've never "wore out" a wheel. The centers always wear out first or the wheel gets damaged.
As for tires we typically run RR's for 2 or 3 nights and LR's for 3 or 4 nights. Last year we were paying $180 for Hoosiers, $175 for American Racers and $230 for Goodyears. We'll see what we end up spending this year.
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October 13, 2012 at
03:32:34 PM
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Wow cubic must not remember the short spline Axles we used to run. To get any change you had to have wheels that had different offsets. To loosen the car you ran a 3" offset, to tighten the car you ran a 5" or now a 6" offset wheel.
And yes Scale are static weight only showing what each corner weights at rest. If the car is moving the weights change. So that is why a 3" wheel is looser than a 5" wheel. The weight moves to where the center of wheel is. On a 3" wheel the weight is more on the inside of the tire. On a 5" wheel the weight is more in the center of the wheel. So the tire feels more pressure in the center.
And on a non-wing car you need more wheel offset than you do on a wing car. Because the non-wing car has no left rear pressure from the wing to hold it down. So the car wants to bike on a real tacky track.
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October 13, 2012 at
05:38:30 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: cubicdollars on October 13 2012 at 05:26:08 AM
The only sickness is your perversion for communist made "spint" cars. Watch out, a wheel cover might lop your head off when it flies off because someone runs a little more wheel offset and the whole wheel rolls under the car like all you geniuses keep claiming. A wheel won't roll under when the track is wide open, and it certainly doesn't roll under when it is dead slick when the clueless bolt on 7 off wheels for any other reason than they don't have any spacers left to take out.
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Wrong reply dipshit. I never mentioned anything about wheels or foreign parts.
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October 13, 2012 at
05:50:56 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: cubicdollars on October 13 2012 at 05:26:08 AM
The only sickness is your perversion for communist made "spint" cars. Watch out, a wheel cover might lop your head off when it flies off because someone runs a little more wheel offset and the whole wheel rolls under the car like all you geniuses keep claiming. A wheel won't roll under when the track is wide open, and it certainly doesn't roll under when it is dead slick when the clueless bolt on 7 off wheels for any other reason than they don't have any spacers left to take out.
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When proven wrong by facts the keyboard experts always turn to bashing and insults.
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October 13, 2012 at
10:22:39 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: Pimpmobile38 on October 13 2012 at 01:35:17 PM
We've never "wore out" a wheel. The centers always wear out first or the wheel gets damaged.
As for tires we typically run RR's for 2 or 3 nights and LR's for 3 or 4 nights. Last year we were paying $180 for Hoosiers, $175 for American Racers and $230 for Goodyears. We'll see what we end up spending this year.
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You say the "center always wear out first".
What do you mean by that? The center cracks out? The splines wear out?
Care to estimate the most number of nights you've ever got out of a RR wheel?
Also I'm curious to as to where you race. I really doubt there are many locals around here (IA, MN, SD) that run a RR for 2 complete nights. Seems like track prep is a thing of the past.
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October 13, 2012 at
10:25:21 PM
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This message was edited on
October 13, 2012 at
10:45:44 PM by buzz rightrear
it is not the lack of tire and wheel dynamics displayed by cubicdollars, or his insistence that EVERYONE in the sprint car community has it wrong except him that strikes me as it does. it is the idea of someone with the name of cubicdollars arguing over the spending of too much money. just their name alone makes it clear of what their opinion is of what it takes to compete in the sport.
as far as cubic's ineptness regarding the dynamic workings of the tire on the wheel, he points to the over all weight of the car that is being supported by a tire at a certain corner of the car in a static position. he fails to understand the concept of WHERE that weight is being placed ON THE TIRE. even in a static position, the point within the position of the wheel where the weight load is placed can be altered while still keeping the foot print of the wheel in the exact same place. meaning you can keep the wheel in the same location relative to the chassis, but alter the position of the wheel center and you have changed the point of loading on the wheel, and therefore on the tire as well. the wheel weight doesn't change, but the point of where that weight is being supported within the confines of the wheel foot print DOES change. no matter how far in or out you place a 5 off wheel on the axle, the loading of the tire will be in the exact same place ON THE TIRE. if you want to change the position of the load on the tire, you have to change the place the load is being applied to it. the way you alter the load point of the tire is by altering the position of the hub within the wheel. a 5 off wheel with a 2" spacer does not affect the car the same as a 6 off wheel with a 3" spacer as cubic claims. just because you have kept the foot print of the tire in relation to the chassis the same, doesn't mean the car will react the same. you have altered the position of the application of the load of the car within the foot print of the tire. in simple terms, you have changed the place on the tire where the car pushes on it. actually, it is the ground pushing on the tire and not the car pushing on it, but that is a whole other discussion. by moving the wheel center further out on the axle you have also softened the effective spring rate at that corner of the car because the forces of the wheel/tire are now being applied further out on the axle, therefore giving them more of a leverage advantage. by changing from a 5 off wheel to a 6 off wheel, but leaving the center of the tire in the same place relative to the chassis, you have changed both the load point of the tire and the effective spring rate of that corner of the car.
but cubic says it makes no difference.
to indy and beyond!!
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October 14, 2012 at
09:08:41 AM
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Cubic just likes to irritate people. His lack of understanding of how a sprint car works is displayed clearly on this thread. As the wheel manufacturer stated wheel offset does in fact change the way weight loads UNDER LOAD/SPEED. Having owned, worked on and DRIVEN sprint cars myself I can tell that this is a FACT. When a track is dry slick for example and it has tight corners you could go out in hot laps with a 5" off RR and feel like you skating on ice (no sidebite) and go back out in the heat race with a 7" off RR (same spacing) and the car feels like it won't turn (too much sidebite). How is this possible when no other changes were made to the car? Cubic, would you care to guess? LOL! Clearly you have changed the distribution of weight UNDER LOAD/SPEED. And, all you have to do is check tire wear location to see this visibly. The looser a car is the tire wear will be to the middle & inner half of the RR tire, the tighter it is (due to weight distribution) the wear will be to the outside edge of the tire. Why do you think knowledgable crew chiefs are always checking the tires when they come off the track? It's not just for heat (although that is part of it) they are checking for the location of the tire wear to confirm what the driver is telling him. If the CC sees tire wear toward the inner half of the RR tire AND the driver is telling him he feels like he is skating into the corners on entry he knows what the issue is and can make the appropriate changes. Anyway, we could go on & on trying to educate Cubic but I don't think it will make much difference. He is probably going to argue the facts no matter what. Hopefully those WANTING to learn more about sprint cars got something out of this thread.
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October 14, 2012 at
12:33:52 PM
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All said one psi is a bigger change than 1" of offset. 
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October 14, 2012 at
02:00:45 PM
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Still, no one has gave any number as to the life expectancy of a wheel.
If these wheels are flexing like most on here claim there has to be a life expectancy before the wheel fails due to metal fatigue.
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October 14, 2012 at
04:22:11 PM
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Where did cubic go? He has a response for everything, usually within hours of someone calling him out? His next response is guarenteed to be entertaining.
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October 14, 2012 at
05:06:13 PM
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When I scale my car it only matters how far out the rr tire is. It doesn't matter what wheels or spacers I use. The more I slide the tire away from the car the less weight the scale shows.
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October 14, 2012 at
05:17:40 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: kooks on October 14 2012 at 02:00:45 PM
Still, no one has gave any number as to the life expectancy of a wheel.
If these wheels are flexing like most on here claim there has to be a life expectancy before the wheel fails due to metal fatigue.
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There is no stat for how long a wheel will last . Most high budget teams buy new wheels every year. There are some teams that have ten year old wheels. It really depends on the abuse you give them.
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October 14, 2012 at
05:31:42 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: CRobinson on October 14 2012 at 05:06:13 PM
When I scale my car it only matters how far out the rr tire is. It doesn't matter what wheels or spacers I use. The more I slide the tire away from the car the less weight the scale shows.
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no one is talking weight on the tire. we are talking about where the LOAD is applied ON THE TIRE.
the further you move the center of the wheel to the outside of the wheel, the more you move the application of the load of the tire to the outside of it. you can move a tire/wheel in and out all you want, but if you use the same off set, you will not effect where the load is applied across the tire. by moving the wheel center in or out within the wheel you change where the load of the car rests across the tire. if the load rests towards the inner part of the tire, that part of the tire will be worked the most, and you will commonly have less side bite. as you move the wheel center deeper into the wheel, you move the point of loading of the tire in the same direction. as you load the outer portion of the tire you are working the outer side wall more by applying more load to it, therefore applying more load towards the outer edge of the tire. that commonly results in more side bite, with everything else being equal. meaning if the center of the tire in relation to the chassis and the air pressure all stay the same, you can commonly expect to see more or less side bite by just changing the wheel off set.
you are not commonly going to see a difference on the scales.
to indy and beyond!!
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October 14, 2012 at
06:17:01 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: buzz rightrear on October 14 2012 at 05:31:42 PM
no one is talking weight on the tire. we are talking about where the LOAD is applied ON THE TIRE.
the further you move the center of the wheel to the outside of the wheel, the more you move the application of the load of the tire to the outside of it. you can move a tire/wheel in and out all you want, but if you use the same off set, you will not effect where the load is applied across the tire. by moving the wheel center in or out within the wheel you change where the load of the car rests across the tire. if the load rests towards the inner part of the tire, that part of the tire will be worked the most, and you will commonly have less side bite. as you move the wheel center deeper into the wheel, you move the point of loading of the tire in the same direction. as you load the outer portion of the tire you are working the outer side wall more by applying more load to it, therefore applying more load towards the outer edge of the tire. that commonly results in more side bite, with everything else being equal. meaning if the center of the tire in relation to the chassis and the air pressure all stay the same, you can commonly expect to see more or less side bite by just changing the wheel off set.
you are not commonly going to see a difference on the scales.
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If I took the wheel centers out of my wheels and just scaled the car on the wheel centers, the farther I would move the rr wheel center out on the rr the less weight would be on it. It wouldn't weigh more like you are saying. That is simple leverage. The farther it gets away from the car the less it weighs.
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October 14, 2012 at
06:34:48 PM
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Better yet, I can scale my car with no tires on it, just wheels. And put the scale under just the rr beadlock. And the only thing that will change the weight is if I move the rr beadlock away from the car.
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October 14, 2012 at
08:04:26 PM
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So this wheel flex thing is true. And all you have is a 1 off or don't feel like moving the tire to a different wheel. Wouldn't you just need to run a lower tire pressure to get the side bite you need? Seems like the flex would be so negligible that air pressure would be the most important thing, so long as the offset was accounted for.
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October 14, 2012 at
08:37:46 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: CRobinson on October 14 2012 at 06:34:48 PM
Better yet, I can scale my car with no tires on it, just wheels. And put the scale under just the rr beadlock. And the only thing that will change the weight is if I move the rr beadlock away from the car.
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do you know the difference between weight and LOAD?
do you know what a pick-up-point is?
do you understand if you push down on the inside of the tire you are applying load at that point and if you push down on the outside of the tire you are applying load at that point?
it is not the weight that is on the tire that i am talking about. it is where the point of load is applied. if you take your hand and push down on the inner bead of the wheel you are loading the inner part of the tire. if you push down on the outer bead you are loading the outer part of the tire. it has nothing to do with what the weight on the tire would be on the scale.
you say you can put the outer bead lock rim on the scale and you can change the weight on it by moving it in and out. well you can leave the rim in the same place on the axle and move the scale to under the inner bead and the scale will read more weight. yet you haven't changed anything, except where you put the scale.
think of this. if you just took the wheel and placed it on two scales. one scale under the inner rim and one under the outer rim. then you applied downward pressure or were able to put a weight right where the wheel hub is where the two wheel halves meet. you would get a total weight reading from the two scales, but one scale would read more than the other. that is because the weight isn't being supported in the exact center, or middle of the wheel. the weight is being supported within the wheel at the point where the hub is located. now if you could take a wheel with a different off set and do the same thing, you would find that as you move the location of the hub within the wheel, you will change the amount of weight on each scale, even though you are applying the same total weight. as you move the wheel hub deeper into the wheel the more weight will be supported by the outer rim. that is because the point the load has been applied has been moved towards the outer part of the wheel.
you might even be able to place the wheel on the axle without a tire on it and put one scale under the inside rim and one scale under the outer rim and then note the weight on each scale as well as the total weight of both scales. then do the same thing with a different off set wheel and have the weight on each scale change while the overall weight on both scales stays the same.
there is also another simple test to show that where you apply load changes things. take two scales, place them a couple of feet apart. put a 2x4 across them. now put one of your feet on the 2x4 right in the middle between the scales and stand on it. you will show a total weight and a weight on each scale. now move to the left or to the right and do the same thing. you will have different weights on each scale, but the same total weight. that is because you are moving the load point.
the thing is, you have to understand that the placement of the wheel hub within the wheel makes a difference as to the loading of the inner or outer part of the tire.
to indy and beyond!!
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October 14, 2012 at
09:05:23 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: buzz rightrear on October 14 2012 at 08:37:46 PM
do you know the difference between weight and LOAD?
do you know what a pick-up-point is?
do you understand if you push down on the inside of the tire you are applying load at that point and if you push down on the outside of the tire you are applying load at that point?
it is not the weight that is on the tire that i am talking about. it is where the point of load is applied. if you take your hand and push down on the inner bead of the wheel you are loading the inner part of the tire. if you push down on the outer bead you are loading the outer part of the tire. it has nothing to do with what the weight on the tire would be on the scale.
you say you can put the outer bead lock rim on the scale and you can change the weight on it by moving it in and out. well you can leave the rim in the same place on the axle and move the scale to under the inner bead and the scale will read more weight. yet you haven't changed anything, except where you put the scale.
think of this. if you just took the wheel and placed it on two scales. one scale under the inner rim and one under the outer rim. then you applied downward pressure or were able to put a weight right where the wheel hub is where the two wheel halves meet. you would get a total weight reading from the two scales, but one scale would read more than the other. that is because the weight isn't being supported in the exact center, or middle of the wheel. the weight is being supported within the wheel at the point where the hub is located. now if you could take a wheel with a different off set and do the same thing, you would find that as you move the location of the hub within the wheel, you will change the amount of weight on each scale, even though you are applying the same total weight. as you move the wheel hub deeper into the wheel the more weight will be supported by the outer rim. that is because the point the load has been applied has been moved towards the outer part of the wheel.
you might even be able to place the wheel on the axle without a tire on it and put one scale under the inside rim and one scale under the outer rim and then note the weight on each scale as well as the total weight of both scales. then do the same thing with a different off set wheel and have the weight on each scale change while the overall weight on both scales stays the same.
there is also another simple test to show that where you apply load changes things. take two scales, place them a couple of feet apart. put a 2x4 across them. now put one of your feet on the 2x4 right in the middle between the scales and stand on it. you will show a total weight and a weight on each scale. now move to the left or to the right and do the same thing. you will have different weights on each scale, but the same total weight. that is because you are moving the load point.
the thing is, you have to understand that the placement of the wheel hub within the wheel makes a difference as to the loading of the inner or outer part of the tire.
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Say you are running the cushion and the outside of the tire does hit something. Yes it will raise up the rr arm more than if the inside of the tire hits a bump because it will have more leverage. That has nothing to do with whether the tire is spaced out with a spacer or a diferent wheel though. The outside "load" will twist the rr torsion bar exactly the same whether you have the wheel spaced out with spacer or a different offset wheel. It only matters how far the tire is out. The wheel, wheel center, axle and spacers are all solid. The tire is what is floppy.
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