Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

It happens at the Kings Royal. And it’s not making it easy on someone else because TT‘s are worth twice what heat races are worth, and then all the main lineups are by TT time. DD started 3rd in the B, all he had to do was hold his position. Instead he lost 2 spots and didn’t make it., if he would’ve made it, combined with his TT time all he would’ve needed was to crack the top 20 and he would’ve been in good shape (see Ian Madsen). DD just couldn’t get it done in the B despite starting in a transfer spot. 

In the end, of the top 10, 7 of them qualified in the top 11, and only 1 was outside the top 20.

Droud was the only front row starter that didn't make it and he had a breakdown or he would have made it easily.

Exactly. 

All these arguments about "so and so would have done better if they timed worse" are completely results oriented too. During time trials, there's no one who is able to predict how the track will react throughout the night. So yeah, if you want to sacrifice the points to get good track position in your heat, go ahead - but you better not hope the track doesn't widen out like it often does, because then you stand to lose more points and your track position with potentially faster cars starting behind you.

Christ, do you think 25K people flock to central Iowa every year because the format sucks? Donny Schatz must have insane luck to have the record he does in the last 10-15 years given the format is a crapshoot from I'm reading on here.

The example of him having a better night by TT slower only works if you make the invert in the feature. Had just a couple more of the faster guys made it through the heats you’d be starting 10th in the A and unless you moved significantly forward you’d be buried in points. Sure it worked for Starks, but he still went from 6 to 4 in the heat then 4 to 1 in the A, it’s not like he just won from the front row

35+ years and counting -  format discussions still make my head spin

As per my recent rants, any inversion is better than no inversion.

It's rather interesting that 32-40 all made the A main. I'll never dissect it due to the aforementioned head spinning, but it is interesting.

I don't know or really care much about the format. I'm just happy to see Starks win. I've seen him a fair amount up here in the Pacific Northwest and I'm glad to see him win at Knoxville. Congratulations.

To all you drunken fans......

May no one hear your cries.....

For at the Knoxville Nationals.......

The cream shall rise. 

The end.

Ah time for the yearly format debate.....

While I agree with most that the cream always does rise to the top, there are nights like last night (and they always seem to be on Wednesday) where the track is really hooked up all night and there is never a lot of separation in speed between the top cars and not top cars, which leads to a lack of top TT cars making it into the A-Main. I have long said that since the weekly point total is so important, why not take the top 20 in points after the heats and line up the main. Invert however you want. This way the guys who timed good are rewarded for that, but also penalized for not making much headway in their heat. The points after the heats last night were as follows, and let you guys think about it:

1. Reutzel

2. I. Madsen

3. TK

4. McMahan

5. Bacon

6. Dietrich

7. Marks

8. G. Scelzi

9. Jeffrey

10. Schatz

11. Larson

12. Polyak

13. Starks

14. Henderson

15. K. Madsen

16. S. Haudenschild

17. Schuchart

18. D. Scelzi

19. McFadden

20. Thorson

It has been 5 Nationals including this one that I have not been there in person.  I have watched every year since on the cushion and dirtvision this year.

I have been there 12 times since 2000.  I don’t know when it changed but when I first started going the inverted the whole field for the heats.  That is correct you had to come from 10^th to 4^th to get into the feature on your qualifying night if you were on of the top 5 in time trials.

Now they invert 8 and you have to make it up to 4^th.  I like this invert for the qualifying night.  This is the Granddaddy of them all.  It is supposed to be hard and should be hard because it is the Nationals.  Don’t change a thing it is great just the way it is.  You ask any sprint car driver what race they want to win and they will tell you “The Nationals”. 

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

That's a humbling comment that puts the night in perspective, although he is either hot or frozen, not much in between.

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

I agree it should be hard.

Which is why I'm wondering why qualifying 23rd overall and finishing 3rd in your heat (after passing 1 car) rewards you with the pole in the feature?

After starting on the pole this same car dropped 3 positions to 4th (23rd overall, passed a total of -2 on the night) and is 11th in points. 

Meanwhile, Kyle Larson as an example qualified 9th, started and finished 7th in his heat, started 7th in the B and finished 6th for a total of +1 on the night after qualifying 14 positions better than the above car. He sits 21st in points.

Brady Bacon (Timed 5th, -1 position on the night) 16th in points

Danny Dietrich (Timed 4th, net 0 positions on the night) 15th in points

The above is fine, as long as there are not several anomoly's -

Paige Polyak (Timed 14th, -15 on the night) 14th in points

Sheldon Haudenschild (Timed 18th, +1 position on the night) 7th in points

James McFadden (Timed 22nd, +1 position on the night) 8th in points

Those are just to name a few. 

I hope you all see some good racing Friday and Satruday but I'm headed home after tonight. This is my 41st year and maybe my last. There are a few good races here and there but almost all the races used to be good, especially the heats. Somebody with loads of skill and daring would start 10th and win heats often "back in the day" but no longer. Every car out there is way too hooked up and the driver simply doesn't matter as much as he used to. The track should be a bit wider so keeping fingers crossed that we see a better show tonight.

Maybe we should just wipe the format clean and go straight up WoO style and kill the best sprint car event in the world. Or just give the 57 a promoter's provisional. 

Some favorites struggle and it's the formats fault. Lol. Heard a good one leaving last night  somebody complaining the track was garbage also. Lol. Pass some cars and they are fine.

I have been at just about every nationals since 1982.  I love the format, but do agree that there are some nights like last night when it is probably too difficult for the faster cars starting 7th and 8th in their heats to make it to to the top 4 and transfer.  Many have mentioned that all of the cars that timed 32nd - 40th made it into Wednesday night's A feature, but I don't think anyone mentioned that because of their slower times none of these cars had a mathematical chance to make Saturday's A feature lineup, at least not on their qualifying night.  Thus while these nine cars got a bonus by getting an A feature start on their qualifying night, they had no chance of making Saturday's A main with their time.  Time trials is by far the most important of the three phases of point accumulation at the Nationals.  Not saying that I like or dislike that, but it is a fact.

Here is a crazy compromise idea:  leave the format the same for the heat races, but yellow flag the field at the half way point of the field to bunch the cars up again.  Then restart them.  One of the issues I see is that the cars get strung out after about two laps and the race is just about settled at that point.  Bunching the field up again would give the faster cars a better chance to move up to a transfer spot.  I said it was crazy, but it would be a compromise between the two different groups going back and forth on this topic.

Agree 100 percent.  This format makes you be fast every time you hit the track.....if you aren't you will be going home early.  Some big dogs went home early last night.  We raced without them and everything turned out fine.  Great racing!!  I know I really enjoyed it.

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

That's kind of the point with the disagreements.....the format rewarded those who were mid-pack qualifying. It happens one night just about every year. I would have no problem with a big dog going home, but multiple big dogs are on the outside looking in and all for the same reason. Granted, most of them will find their way into the A-main, but for the biggest race of the year, luck shouldn't be THIS big of a factor. And I know folks are saying "it's supposed to be hard" and I totally agree, but wouldn't hard be holding off all the big dogs for 50 laps to win the big check?

Maybe,  but if you are really that fast you should be able to pass those guys in front of you in 10 laps.  If you are really that fast.  I like to see upsets and sometimes the big dogs in trouble.  It isn't luck.....if they were as fast as they thought they were "some of the big dogs last night" they could come from 7th or 8th to qualify in there heat.   The format hasn't changed that much over the years.  Keep it....it is 1,000 times better than what the Outlaws use on a regular bassis.  I hate starting the fastest time trialer on the pole.  There isn't as much excitment when that happens.

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

Agreed on the invert, but adding passing points would help.