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Topic: LS Sprint Car Engine Presentation & Info is now available for viewing
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Page 2 of 2 of 38 replies
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August 19, 2010 at
07:35:51 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: rubber down on August 18 2010 at 09:25:21 AM
If you want to bring the cost down there are simple ways to do so. Lower the compression numbers to 13 or so to 1 . That is the biggest killer of the 410 motor. With this lower c.r. 25 nites is no problem except maybe springs. You could also look at a smaller injector or small tube headers to take the big heads down a notch.
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I totally agree with you about an engine compression rule especially for 410 C.I. weekly shows.
Also would like to see narrower right & left rear tires, and shorter sideboards on the top wings.
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August 19, 2010 at
07:53:40 PM
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even easier restrict the intake and exhaust of the motors
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August 19, 2010 at
10:01:10 PM
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This message was edited on
August 19, 2010 at
10:23:34 PM by streatorboy1948
Reply to:
Posted By: The_Truth_Detector on August 19 2010 at 12:48:57 AM
The ball is in the racers and fans court. The Schatz's and Ron Shaver have done the "foot work" to show everyone that engines can be built "on the cheap" to help bring the cars back and run competitively. Less than 10 years ago, the 410's were putting out these same numbers and the price wasn't a whole lot less than what we see now.
This is a no brainer people, but until the powers that be wake up and listen to the owners and the fans, this will fall by the wayside. From someone who was at this presentation, I can tell you that the manufacturers of the “bolt on” parts and a couple of engine builders were VERY much against this engine, saying it will only bring “instability” to the sport. If you were to hear their side, it is the beginning of the end of sprint car racing. They were firmly in the belief that everything in “big time” sprint car racing is just fine, it’s just the economy that is making teams sell out.I have seen/heard the argument that a person can go buy an old -12 engine and run it for close to the same price, but that engine is 10 years old and has been thrashed, no matter how “fresh” it is, the block and heads have still been ran hard over the years and you will still be spending $5k to $8k to re-fresh it every 10 to 14 nights (for the budget racers). It just doesn’t make sense when you can buy a brand new engine for $20k and freshen it at a cost of $2500 to $3000 per YEAR (25 to 30 nights) with the same "numbers".My suggestion is for every car owner, driver and fan who thinks that this engine is a good idea, to either write an email, pick up the phone, or personally talk to your track owners, promoters, sanction leaders and competition directors to let them know that you support this engine and everything it stands for.
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I too was at this presentation and can tell you Schatz's and Ron Shaver did this with their own time and money and are offering it to any track, series or sanctioning body that wants to take it up. The specs are available to any engine builder for this motor, but it would be up to one of those bodies to determine how much variation and what rules they would like for tech. River City Speedway in Grand Forks plans to allow it immediately. Local series' such as NOSA and WISSOTA may follow. There is promoter interest on the West Coast, too. The motor will bolt into a current car with an adapter for the Spicer joint (Sander or Winters) and new headers (Schoenfeld) that are already available. It needs a 12 amp-hour AGM battery mounted on the firewall($40). A do-it-yourself build guide for Joe Dirt Racer may also appear if there is enough interest. Donny Schatz has shown it can race with 410's at Fargo and Grand Forks. The result at Knoxville was better than most expected and it survived. Now the racers need to speak up. The parts are currently on the shelf, not a 'concept'.
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August 19, 2010 at
10:32:34 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: streatorboy1948 on August 19 2010 at 10:01:10 PM
I too was at this presentation and can tell you Schatz's and Ron Shaver did this with their own time and money and are offering it to any track, series or sanctioning body that wants to take it up. The specs are available to any engine builder for this motor, but it would be up to one of those bodies to determine how much variation and what rules they would like for tech. River City Speedway in Grand Forks plans to allow it immediately. Local series' such as NOSA and WISSOTA may follow. There is promoter interest on the West Coast, too. The motor will bolt into a current car with an adapter for the Spicer joint (Sander or Winters) and new headers (Schoenfeld) that are already available. It needs a 12 amp-hour AGM battery mounted on the firewall($40). A do-it-yourself build guide for Joe Dirt Racer may also appear if there is enough interest. Donny Schatz has shown it can race with 410's at Fargo and Grand Forks. The result at Knoxville was better than most expected and it survived. Now the racers need to speak up. The parts are currently on the shelf, not a 'concept'.
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I just can't understand why we need another motor. If the plan is to allow it to run with the 410's so be it but sprint car racing does not need another variation. We have 305's with several different sets of rules throughout the nation. 360's the same thing with the ascs being the most popular. 410's as far as I know is the only displacment with the same rules across the board. As you add more and more different motor combinations you weaken your car counts because someone can not come from a different region and run under your rules.
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August 19, 2010 at
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Some tracks are already allowing the modifieds and late models to run the CT 525 which is the same motor only built by Chevy. For the sprints this could be a great way to have a good strong motor that woulld live and not cost so much and be semi competitive when the big boys come to town.
Oneday even the Outlaws will be using this motor instead of the 55 year old design they are running.
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August 21, 2010 at
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Reply to:
Posted By: rubber down on August 19 2010 at 10:32:34 PM
I just can't understand why we need another motor. If the plan is to allow it to run with the 410's so be it but sprint car racing does not need another variation. We have 305's with several different sets of rules throughout the nation. 360's the same thing with the ascs being the most popular. 410's as far as I know is the only displacment with the same rules across the board. As you add more and more different motor combinations you weaken your car counts because someone can not come from a different region and run under your rules.
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Think about it for a second, I know that this isn't the popular answer to your question on why another motor is needed, but this engine could replace both the 410's AND 360's. If it were to be used as a direct replacement, at $20k for 750hp, it would put most of the other engines out of business at half the price and have the same refresh frequency as the budget 360's. That HAS to have some engine builders, vendors and sanctions shaking in their boots.
This engine changes EVERYTHING. But, then again, if you listen to Mr. Schatz, that is not the intent of this engine (at this point in time) and rightly so. But it is time for a radical change. As was mentioned in the meeting, nobody could remember any new 410 teams in the PA area in recent times, but there have been a lot of them that have sold out. It's time to be proactive and unless someone can come up with something better, I believe that this is the answer.
IMO, the WoO, USAC, ASCoC and ALL other 410 sanctions and tracks need to let this engine run in 2010 under the guidelines proposed by Mr. Shaver. What negative effects could it possibly have? I personally know several people who would jump on this in the blink of an eye, people who are very close to selling out and leaving the sport.
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August 21, 2010 at
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Reply to:
Posted By: The_Truth_Detector on August 21 2010 at 01:34:42 AM
Think about it for a second, I know that this isn't the popular answer to your question on why another motor is needed, but this engine could replace both the 410's AND 360's. If it were to be used as a direct replacement, at $20k for 750hp, it would put most of the other engines out of business at half the price and have the same refresh frequency as the budget 360's. That HAS to have some engine builders, vendors and sanctions shaking in their boots.
This engine changes EVERYTHING. But, then again, if you listen to Mr. Schatz, that is not the intent of this engine (at this point in time) and rightly so. But it is time for a radical change. As was mentioned in the meeting, nobody could remember any new 410 teams in the PA area in recent times, but there have been a lot of them that have sold out. It's time to be proactive and unless someone can come up with something better, I believe that this is the answer.
IMO, the WoO, USAC, ASCoC and ALL other 410 sanctions and tracks need to let this engine run in 2010 under the guidelines proposed by Mr. Shaver. What negative effects could it possibly have? I personally know several people who would jump on this in the blink of an eye, people who are very close to selling out and leaving the sport.
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The negative effect would be money out of builders' pockets. And I'm fairly certain top teams would still pay big bucks for massive HP.
Until you can get the drivers and teams to quit outspending each other to go faster, this engine is just a theory.
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August 21, 2010 at
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New Sprint-Car Engine Concept Spawns SkepticismBy: Mike Kerchner National Speed Sport News KNOXVILLE, Iowa
Racers are frustrating.
They complain that it costs too much to race or the purses aren’t high enough, but when someone tries to effect change, they have every reason in the world not to listen — even a little bit.
Friday at Knoxville Raceway an engine meeting hosted by engine builder Ron Shaver and driver Donny Schatz drew promoters, drivers and engine builders from throughout the industry. The concept presented by Shaver and Schatz was simple: an affordable engine that would help get more racers on the track.
Few in the meeting heard the word concept and they cited many reasons not to consider the engine. The idea was not for this engine, which would be based on the General Motors LS-7 powerplant, to become a new sprint-car division, but to race with existing 410 divisions across the country. Few in the room heard that.
Many were concerned, and justifiably if this were really to be a new division, that it would further segment the sprint-car racing market that already includes 410, 360 and 305 engines. Others didn’t believe the idea would work to increase car counts. Some clearly believed they couldn’t make enough money on the project.
The idea of Schatz’s father, Danny, Shaver took the concept and ran with it and said it surprised even him that a competitive engine could be produced for the $13,800 which it cost him to build. The concept engine produced 740 horsepower and has been used by Schatz in competition, including a controversial (probably because he won) victory in All Star sprint-car competition.
Schatz and Shaver stressed the engine is only a concept and that its specs are not set in stone.
“There are a lot of questions to be asked,” Schatz said. “This is just the first step along the way. I’d like to see injectors on it, but there you go and you run into a couple thousand dollars on to it. It is a spec engine. Everything on it was built for a street car. We’ve spent the money to get it to this point. It is not our intent to regulate it or be a part of it. It can get better, but this is ground one. Base one.”
Shaver, for his part, acknowledged business is down and that building this new spec version of a sprint-car engine could create business for engine builders, should they be able to make a reasonable profit margin on it.
“I know where I am coming from, I don’t have much to do anymore and if I could make the margins on it and make the engines and get more guys on the race track it would give me something to keep going, I would do it,” he said. “The 410 engine business is slower than it has been since ’75 or ’76.”
But everyone is afraid of the unknown. Instead of taking an idea and making it better, they would rather find fault with it and stick with the status quo.
Schatz tagged the back (24 cars) of Saturday’s World Challenge using the engine and was up to 12th when the checkered flag waved in what was merely a test for the engine, as the four-time Nationals champion was not scored and received no money for his test session.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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August 21, 2010 at
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I applaud Danny and Donny Schatz and Ron Shaver for undertaking this project and the spirit in which they did.
Knoxville pushing it locally and for the unsanctioned Nationals is it's best bet. Never say never.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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August 21, 2010 at
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Good article by Kerchner. I think he did a good job of explaining the situation.
I discussed this with several drivers/car owners and track and series people last week. There IS interest. It's going to take someone who has leverage with tracks and sanctioning bodies to move this concept forward. It might take a couple of years but the longer it takes, the more deterioration will take place with car counts.
Danny Schatz and Ron Shaver have the right approach here. Don't make this a new division. Incorporate this engine into the current 410 ranks. This can be a way to get back to enveloping all of sprint car racing again. I've always thought that the more divisions (410, 360, 358, 305, ect.) have had a very negative effect on the identity of the sport. A sprint car should be a sprint car and allowed to race anywhere without being subjected to different standards set by each track or sanctioning bodies.
This engine produces around 750 hp, from what I've been told. Top of the line 410s can produce around 900 hp. Will it be competitive with the top echelon of the sport straight up at a place like Knoxville or Eldora? Probably not. That's why one solution could be a weight handicap. Maybe weigh the LS-7 car WITHOUT it's driver. Maybe there are other, better ideas out there to make these engines relavent on a competitive basis.
Engine builders have made really good money by finding ways to get more power out of the current 410 engine world. HP = $$$. Shaver sees the future. It's basic Econ 101. Supply and demand. The sport needs new consumers. Henry Ford built cars that the average American could afford and changed the country. Personal computers changed the world when they became affordable to the average person. By getting new people, and retaining current people, the sport can grow, not just on the track but in the grandstands and business world
The engine builder(s) that can make an engine last longer, maintain competitve horsepower and save the sprint car world money will be very successful financially. It's the American Way. Put some common-sense tech processes and guidelines to work and see what happens. Open up the process to all engine builders and have penalties enforced for those who subvert the rules.
I know some tracks and sanctioning bodies don't think there is enough of a problem to make a change, but when you are lucky to get 100 cars at a million dollar purse event...when you see car counts and tracks and sanctioned events dip into the teens and low twenty's...when grandstands get harder and harder to fill and sponsorship money harder and harder to find...it's time to look at alternatives to the current $45-50k 410 engine and the current $35-40k 360 engine.
This is politics and economics at work. It's going to take someone with vision and "pull" to get it out there. It's going to be an interesting process to see. How it plays out will have a huge impact on the relevancy of the sport for years to come.
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August 21, 2010 at
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Reply to:
Posted By: cubicdollars on August 21 2010 at 09:40:59 AM
I applaud Danny and Donny Schatz and Ron Shaver for undertaking this project and the spirit in which they did.
Knoxville pushing it locally and for the unsanctioned Nationals is it's best bet. Never say never.
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Knoxville was letting teams go up to 440 C.I. engines earlier this year. Did anyone or is anyone still in the process of building one of those engines for 2011?
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August 21, 2010 at
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Reply to:
Posted By: RHC on August 21 2010 at 11:21:11 AM
Knoxville was letting teams go up to 440 C.I. engines earlier this year. Did anyone or is anyone still in the process of building one of those engines for 2011?
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John McCoy stated that nobody had approached him about running the larger engine. Which IMO backs up what was brought up at the meeting. Why would someone sink a ton of money into an engine that is over 10 years old and is VERY used?
Member of this message board since 1997
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August 21, 2010 at
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They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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August 21, 2010 at
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I think it's a great idea! I wonder how much HP a set of injectors would add also. Seems like for a couple thousand more you would have close to what the 410's are making now and still be less than half the cost. The only problems I see are getting the tracks on board and allowing teams to run 429 CI's and the engine builders getting on board. You would have to get every major engine builder across the country to agree to build a motor to these specs and police them so there is no cheating, seems like a monumental task. Engine builders are in competition as much as the racers to build the best engine and now you would be asking them to throw out the technology they have developed over the years to build a spec engine with all factory parts and make less money doing so. My guess is that ain't gonna happen. I hope it does though. Can you imagine the sprint car counts if you could get a competitive engine that will last 25 races for under $20,000? That would be great for the sport IMO.
A
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August 22, 2010 at
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HC - The engine builders were a bit skeptical until Ron Shaver asked Bob Wesphal (WESMAR) "what are you making off of a $48k 410, maybe $5k to $8k?" to which Bob answered "maybe $5k." to which Ron mentioned something to the effect that he could put these out all day long for $20k (roughly $5k to $6k profit per engine and if the engine were to take off, they would be building more of these than 410's.
Ron the proceeded to tell everyone that one of the good things about this motor from a builders perspective is that due to this engine being built with basically "off the shelf" parts that this engine can be built in one day, unlike the 410's that they're currently building where they measure EVERYTHING.
Also HC, the main point Shaver made about this whole thing is to keep it a "spec" engine whereas anyone who chooses to be a builder of the engine, would have to have his own personal "seals" fabricated to seal the engine, then put up say a $100k "bond" and if an engine is found to be illegal, then it is the builder who is fined out of his "bond". This keeps everything on the "up and up".
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August 22, 2010 at
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The one class that is not totally out of hand with engine cost is the 305 class.A lot of these engines are home built and run pretty darn good for the small size.The model to go by is already there,it just needs more cubic inches.You can build a 410 for the same price as a 305 if you stick with the same guidelines,and you can do it with readily available off the shelf parts in your own garage.I'm not saying this is a motor for the WoO,but it would be a good way to go for local tracks,and guys wanting to move up from the 305 class but can't afford the out of hand 360 motors.
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August 22, 2010 at
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Reply to:
Posted By: Hawker on August 22 2010 at 12:32:24 AM
HC - The engine builders were a bit skeptical until Ron Shaver asked Bob Wesphal (WESMAR) "what are you making off of a $48k 410, maybe $5k to $8k?" to which Bob answered "maybe $5k." to which Ron mentioned something to the effect that he could put these out all day long for $20k (roughly $5k to $6k profit per engine and if the engine were to take off, they would be building more of these than 410's.
Ron the proceeded to tell everyone that one of the good things about this motor from a builders perspective is that due to this engine being built with basically "off the shelf" parts that this engine can be built in one day, unlike the 410's that they're currently building where they measure EVERYTHING.
Also HC, the main point Shaver made about this whole thing is to keep it a "spec" engine whereas anyone who chooses to be a builder of the engine, would have to have his own personal "seals" fabricated to seal the engine, then put up say a $100k "bond" and if an engine is found to be illegal, then it is the builder who is fined out of his "bond". This keeps everything on the "up and up".
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You answered the question as to why an engine builder would want this program...he could assemble this 'spec ' motor[making a little more than 750hp] and profit the same as a full blown-latest and greatest 900hp motor..I think all they ask was for some track /race organization to allow the motor ,so it can continue to be tested as a viable option.Once 15-20 of these engines are track proven for a season...well then the conversation should start as to whether it's the direction 410 racing should go,,BTW I wonder if Shaver would assemble a little stock motor for my old '72 chevy pu one afternoon,,$8000 motor,less than $3000 in the motor but $5000 in labor to assemble in an afternoon...my point to being sarcastic is ..to build a 'off the shelf' spec motor and not blueprint it [measure EVERYTHING] yet charge $5k-$6k profit for one day job just because you put up a bond and seals just to verify you didn't cheat IMO just another racer ripoff
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August 22, 2010 at
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Reply to:
Posted By: Hawker on August 22 2010 at 12:32:24 AM
HC - The engine builders were a bit skeptical until Ron Shaver asked Bob Wesphal (WESMAR) "what are you making off of a $48k 410, maybe $5k to $8k?" to which Bob answered "maybe $5k." to which Ron mentioned something to the effect that he could put these out all day long for $20k (roughly $5k to $6k profit per engine and if the engine were to take off, they would be building more of these than 410's.
Ron the proceeded to tell everyone that one of the good things about this motor from a builders perspective is that due to this engine being built with basically "off the shelf" parts that this engine can be built in one day, unlike the 410's that they're currently building where they measure EVERYTHING.
Also HC, the main point Shaver made about this whole thing is to keep it a "spec" engine whereas anyone who chooses to be a builder of the engine, would have to have his own personal "seals" fabricated to seal the engine, then put up say a $100k "bond" and if an engine is found to be illegal, then it is the builder who is fined out of his "bond". This keeps everything on the "up and up".
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Spec engines do not work because you can not seal them. What ever seal you make can be reproduced and this is a high enough level to make it worth cheating. What ever rules are put in place need to be able to be checked at the track. Compression, injector size, header size. Compression will save the most money if it comes back to 14 to 1 or so not the 17+ in the heavy hitter motors. The ls motor will have to be checked for compression because they will evolve and the compression numbers will go up and up. The rebuild cycles will get shorter and shorter with more and more costs. The ls motor will one day be the motor of choice but not in a 20000 form probably more like 60000 by the time they become popular.
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August 22, 2010 at
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So if this new motor puts out 750hp and costs 20k then why wouldn't a person be better off buying a 2300 motor that would put out close to 100 more hp for the same price? We own a gaerte that was purchased for around the 20k mark and have about 840hp and are told by gaerte that we can run 20 shows on the motor. If you are not running with the woo you dont need to rebuild every 10 races. Sure this motor may lose a little by the time we hit the 20 race point but who cares? Im not running for 10Grand every night.
If this motor did start to take off who would be able to afford it anyways? In this economy there is no way that most guys would be able to just go out and buy this new motor while they already have a traditional 410. Selling the motors we already have now would be a far fetch as no one has any money to buy right now. If somene were just getting into racing why would they spend 20k on this ls 7 when they could buy a 12 headed motor for about half the price and still have more hp? The 20+ races before a freshen are all achievable with any motor. It just depends on who your competition is.
If these motors were started to become common place the first thing that would happen is purses would be cut and before too long it would be 360s all over again. It seems that ever since sprint cars started roaming the country there have been more and more rules over time and the cost always rises. The purses sure dont seem to follow suit however as the promoter feels that if a car has been restricted it just doesnt deserve as large of a payout.
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