Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

All true....

For years they inverted 10 and the big guns always ended up in the A-Main on Saturday, with a few surprises.  Today's cars are all so even, everyone has the same 'stuff' and they are all pretty fast as was shown last night....

Agreed, maybe 6 or 4 would be better

I think they used to invert 10

I'm sure somebody who has been following this longer than me can correct or support that....

First of all I did not see the racing last night, but looked at the results.  I did not study them as far as all of the specifics like qualifying position, heat finishes, etc...but I do realize many did not qualify where they normally do, some top drivers did not make the heat transfer and some probably did not make the A main as expected.

As far as fixing or altering the format, you are never going to be able to equalize time trials, at least I do not see a fix.  As far as the heat races, drivers need to race, not benefit from a time trial outcome.  That being said, some may be benefiting from starting up front.

Bottom line in my opinion, leave it alone and make them race.  They all run a format according to their own series that is basically the same all year.  This one is different and every year people want to analyze it and change it.  Leave it the way it is.  From what I am detecting, there was some good racing and the B was like an A main.  If you have slower time trial then you have a chance to make up for it in your heat.  Kind of a 2nd chance from perhaps a poor time trial slot.  If you have a faster time, then now you have to prove that you as a driver can drive and you have a great car and set-up.  The invert is like an equalizer for the time trial outcome.  It doesn't always work out that way, but in dirt track racing things change constantly.  Look at it this way, things were a little more exciting last night and you can bet Friday night will be even more exciting.  Wish I was there!!!

Thats not how they line up the A. If I am not mistaken, they line up the a main by Time Trial times. So say the guys that time tirial in spots 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 11, 14, all transfer to the A out of their heats, and they are the top 8 time trialers to make the A, they wll invert those 8, meaning the line up would be 14, 11, 9, 8, 6, 4, 3, 1. Then the rest of the field will line up according to time with the next closest time tirialer who times 15th or worse starting 9th etc. Which brings me to my next point, This format does reward being fast, because to have a shot you need to be fast every time you hit the track. Sure, you can time trial 38th and win heat 3 from the pole, but you will be starting just ahead of the B transfer cars in the A main, but you are still behind in points so you are not rewarded for Saturday because of Timing poorly. Even if you time 38th and win the heat, and win the feature, that would be the same as if you were quick time, ran 6th in your heat and 15th in the B, heck, you would actually be ahead timimg poorly because you have the heat race points. If the format is the way I believe it is, if you are quick time, and run up to 4th or better to transfer into the A, You will start 8th in the A main. OR if you are 5th quick and run up to a transfer spot in the heat, you have a shot of starting anywhere between 4-8, depending on how time tiralers 1-4 fared in their heat, that is your reward for being quick in TT and in the heat, starting up front in the feature. This format rewards you for being fast and moving forward every time you hit the racetrack, not just being fast in TT or being fast in the A, it rewards being fast every time.

So winning a heat gives you 100 points but may not give you a better starting position in the A  compared to others in your heat if they al TT faster??

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

Correct, Again, I may be wrong, but I believe that is how theformat was explained to me. I am a firm believer that a guy who times 5th and runs from 8th to 2nd or 3rd in the heat, should start ahead of a guy that that times 38th and wins the heat from the pole. 

Besides, why would we want to make it easier for these guys? This is the biggest race of the year, it should be hard and take some luck to get in. I know I for one do not want to see two people with a perfect score of 500 every year, that just takes away from the accomplishment when someone actually does do it, like Gravel. I like the fact that other than Reutzel, the next highest point getter is in the mid 460s.

Great points racefanigan!

The greatest part about the Nationals is that it provides smaller teams the chance to make the show on their qualifying night if the breaks go their way, and if they perform, they can earn enough points to make the Saturday A-main, or start up front in the B. 

It's a bit frustrating to see people complain about the format, because the heat race invert (which did used to be 10, but was changed to 8 partly for safety issues, since much slower cars were causing big problems when starting from the front row of heat races) is what makes Wednesday and Thursday of the Nationals two of the most exciting nights of racing all year. 

If you were looking back at the history of past winners and saw a bunch of guys you'd never heard of, then I would understand taking an issue with the format, as this is the biggest race of the year, but the cream rises to the top ALWAYS! Every year, the Saturday finale has some guys in the A that are surprises, but the bulk of the A-main qualifiers are the stars.

The best drivers are going to lay down a good enough lap to give themselves a chance no matter where they draw for qualifying. The best racers are going to find their way into their preliminary night A-main by earning it in their heat or the B-main. The guys that deserve to make the show will move forward in the A-main and get enough points to be upfront on Saturday.

One of the best changes that Knoxville has made to the format over the history of the Nationals is how they've changed Friday; giving drivers a second chance if they did run into some bad luck in their prelim.

I implore fans NOT to complain about the Knoxville format, because the biggest bummer ever would be if they changed it to a typical WoO format. Don't get me wrong, I love the Outlaws, but watching the fastest guys start on the pole of their heats and not have to pass anyone to transfer, then start in front again in the A would take away from the best week of the year.

The Nationals are great largely BECAUSE of the format!

The format isn't broke, the cars are. Too much traction, too much turbulence. There were only 4 or 5 drivers last night that could not have won a heat from the front row if they had the fortune of starting there.

The Nationals are great because the track is conducive to the format being the way it is. If the track was normally like it was last night, you’d have to throw the format out the window because it wouldn’t work. 8’of the top 10 not making it out of the heats isn’t exciting. 

Given what we know about Knoxville, I believe the track will be a lot better tonight. 

If a guy times 5th and runs 2nd or 3rd in his heat, he’ll make the 8 car invert to start the prelim a main. The guy timing 38th would not, and would likely start toward the back of the prelim a main. 

Thats exactly my point, that was a comment in regards to seeing a lot on social media about heat winners. Thats the way the format should be, a lot of talk about how the format is not "rewarding", that is me showing that it is rewarding being fast all night.

There’s way too much misunderstanding the format, and then you have guys like Deetrich saying they got beat by the format and suddenly everyone wants to change something they don’t understand to begin with. 

and qualifiers 32-40 all made the A main

Maybe all the big dogs that couldn't get it done last night should ask Arron Reutzel for some advice. 

And the best of those 8 is Jac sitting at 13th in points. 

Heres where the top 10 in points qualified:

Reutzal- 2

TK- 3

McMahan- 6

Marks- 11

Starks- 15

Ian Madsen- 1

Sheldon- 18

McFadden- 22

Gio Scelzi- 8

Schatz- 10

I just don't see how it is logical to start the quick timer in the heat outside of a transfer spot. Does that happen anywhere else? I see a lot of people saying we shouldn't make it easy on them, and they should have to prove they deserve to qualify but the problem is by making it hard on them you are making it easy on someone else. For every one of those top 10 who didn't make it someone who timed mid-pack got to start up front and fininsh top 4 in for the most part no passing heat races and meander their way into the feature. Schatz, Larson (or Dietrich, or the majority fo the remaining top 10 in TT) are right to say they got beat by the format. The biggest mistake Dietrich made last night was timing 4th, had he timed 15th (as Starks did) he likely would have had a much easier night, and if he had done in even better (by that I mean, timing worse) he may have got to start on the pole of the feature. 

To me, that is the beauty of the nationals format. It might hurt some, it might not hurt others. Either way, to be in position come Saturday, you have to put your self in position three separate times throughout the night on Wednesday or Thursday, not just once. 

I have often picked up on the fact that, the guys who didn't fare so well are the ones who don't like the format, I have not seen Reutzel saying anything about the format. (If we dig deep, I am sure we can find the same person one year saying they love it, and the next year saying they hate it, lol) I know it may be frustrating sometimes, but everyone has to race against the same program.

I think the format was designed to beat some of these guys. The problem is, when you do things like that, you can't differentiate between not performing, and having bad luck, and that is the real tough part of the nationals. One bad luck event, and it can ruin your weekend. But that is also why I like the Hard Knox Friday show now, gives those guys one more shot to make it that may have had bad luck in the Prelim night, (IE Schuchart and Brown last year).