Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Thanks again. But it doesn't say if invert is based on points, TTs or heat finish...

But now I know thanks to explanations on this forum....

I don't know... "gross favoritism"? "rooting for your guys"?

Or maybe "a fair deal for everyone"????

Its not like its a big deal & I get mad about it.... there's down time during PPV broadcasts & might as well BS with other fans on Hoseheads

Its a good format, but most things can be improved at some point

People come on here with questions about a format run once a year that is completely different than a normal sprint car race and we’re being critical of them? Even I with my 14 nationals often forget about the 8 car a main invert on the prelim nights. I also forget the heat invert on Friday is 4 (which makes no sense) and the a main has no invert. 

Whatever......like I said it wasn't this thread. It was an earlier one regarding the Nationals and the panic by some that Hodnett may have been on the bubble for Saturday's A Main, even though he won a qualifier. So right away, the naysayers were in fear that one of their own might get short changed due to a bad format........hence maybe some changes were needed.  LOL   Sure brought a lot of "suggestions" out from one region of fans. Of course last year and the year before neither Prelim A Main was won by a Posse driver, so the idea of not making the A Main or getting an automatic spot didn't come up at all.

Yes and no.  Schatz drew 1st and Larson drew last on the same night.  Larson qualified 10th and Schatz 4th or 5th.  10th was plenty good to land a good point total.

My apologies Hooper.  I know you asked a lot of questions in the thread I am referring.  Looking back, you were simply asking for clarification.  Others were not.  Others know the format and want to bash it when it does not benefit their driver or their region.  I also took in a lot of comments around the track---not just on Hoseheads. 

Once again, nothing wrong with asking those questions and I should not have started the thread by acting like those who don't know the format are stupid.  I spent a lot of time explaining the format to guys who were rookies to the entire show.  I should have said "those who think the format was not entirely clear to the drivers and their teams are stupid"  They all know exactly what they have to do to get in and no matter what happens, there are fans that think their driver, or region are constantly getting the short end of the stick. 

No disrespect meant to you.

My thing is just that racing should count more than qualifying, for any driver from any state or any country. Thats all...

I say the same thing about USAC & they have ZERO Pennsyltucky guys

& yes, I'm a Posse fan....

"invert for the A-main is 8" 

Drivers who make the A in the heats get their time back and the invert is 8. 

Thanks. Appreciate the reply. Mad respect for those that help out the newer crowd. Would love to see the winged sprint cars become more popular and overtake the asphalt formats. 

And if they did that, guys would sandbag qualifying, or you’d have to get rid of the invert and the event would suffer. 

I get what you're saying and that's your opinion.  I had to think about why this is so important in the past and I figured out how it could give a HUGE advantage to the sand bagger---especially on a damp track--to weight the feature and qualifying different. 

This is a scenario where the track is damp and passing is at a premium:

If I come out guns blazing on my qualifying lap, and I take quick time, I get 100 pts.  I start 8th in my heat.  Let's say I am able to scoot from 8th to 4th and lock into the A.  It's worth 91 pts and I start 8th in that night's A.  However, because the track is a wet and has 1 groove, many fast cars will not transfer in their heats or from the B-main.  Meanwhile, in every other heat, no fast cars can get through their heats (due to track conditions) and only slower cars transfer to the A.  If you give the slower cars the front of the A, give them the points for finishing at the front of their heats, and give extra weight to the race on a night where the track has no passing lanes, you are rewarding the slower cars.  What happens next?  

Sand bagging in qualifying.  I don't like that scenario. 

I have seen many of wet, heavy tracks on qualifying nights.  The current format is the only way (in my opinion) to level this out and make sure the cars that unload fast are rewarded for being fast.  They still have to race to get there, but any other scenario gives a huge advantage to the wrong set of cars. 

JMO

You're right. There were a couple nights over the years where the scenerio you describe did take place. I think only two or three of the top ten qualifiers (at that time) qualified through the heats. That's what Knoxville is trying to avoid. You can't have a National Championship and make a format that could eliminate the top drivers in the land. This format does make it tough enough for them as it is. The best format offers opportunity to all tiers of racers. The results year after year pretty much prove that to be the case with this format. It does shake out in the end. Granted, some are going to get snake bit, but it isn't the fault of the format. Timing late isn't always a bad thing. I think the year they had 166 cars at the Nationals, Steve Kinser came out last and set quick time. Anyway.......Take Brown for instance......he came out late and qualified poorly. Hodnett came out even later than Brown, and put down a quicker time. The format was such and the conditions were such that Hodnett was able to make the best of his situation. Which, by the way.....I WAS happy to see.  Did Brown have car issues? Only he knows. If so, then he did the right thing by waiting to run Friday and not screw anything else up.  Still, his Nationals was in jeopardy, and as it turned out a bad year for him at Nationals. Shit happens. He'll strap back in and go at it balls out, again. We do seem to go through this every year, and the tweekers to the format usually have an agenda.....not always, but usually. 

Well, first of all if you set fast time you get 200 points, not 100

I'm with you there.  As a fan, if I had it my way there would never be any time trials at a sprint car race.  It's a big time snooze fest as far as I'm concerned.  However at a race like this I'm not sure what you could do to make avoid them with having so many different cars from different parts of the country .

100 was the hypothetical situation.  Was explaining why it wouldn't work.  

Everybody gets too hung up on what the point breakdown is.....200/100/200........and the pace at wuich each portion drops off.....so if you reduce the totals, and reduce the spread....like 100 for QT....99 for second quick and so on........the spread is still gong to be dramatic from top to bottom , and making up points on the guys with more points is still going to be the same task. If the numbers and format are played with too much........there might just be a log jam with all kinds of drivers having the same totals.....not good. Leave it be! It's fine.

The format is fine. It is simple math and the higher you finish each time you hit the track, the more points you get. Add them up at the end of two nights and you line them up by who has the most points. 

I know people don't like qualifying but it's needed. At the end of the day this is a competition and the biggest race of the year. Not everyone can start up front and looking at the top 16, they had the best performances overall after 2days. Everything needs to be weighed qualifying included as it is a part of racing. Although at times it can be boring but it is critical since it is what sets the field, and the point system rewards the teams that go all out each time they hit the track.

The teams that started upfront deserved to be there and were the best performing teams. 

I have been going to/watching the Nationals since the mid-1960's. My opinion is the most exciting format was the 60's-70's by light years. Of course it was non-wing. But the rules were so understood, and that added to the excitement. You had to have your act together as a team and a racer. Time trials were a big thing, you were in the lime light, the announcers told all about you as a driver. Thats how drivers became well known or known about at all. It was great, and it really focused on the driver and his big chance. 
They would tell the races the driver had won and what his occupation was if not a full time racer. It seemed you knew a lot more about the drivers. 
After time trials the two nights would produce the biggest sprint car races of the season. Some drivers who had great times and were up front wouldn't race, but some would. Saturday night had the C,B,A trophy dash and C,B,A feature. 
No goofiness, no screaming, no heavy metal, no screaming about guys lifting tool boxes. Just good to the point racing.

Of course things change. I still love the Nationals, could it improve? Definately. But it would be interesting integrating some of the old practices that "made" the Nationals. Always good to consider.

Things I noticed this year:

Brad Sweet is fast and can wheel a car.

Larson is great and handles different formats of racing.

Schatz is a just a great racer, on the pedal always.

Gregg Hodnett is impressive and  really still has it, I have watched him for years and great to see he is on top of the game.

Bobby Allen's car's are impressive, these guys are going to do some winning.

It seemes if the heat's are going to be inverted need to be longer. 

Seems the drivers doing well outside of any organization is good and interesting.

I used to see 50 lap races when non-wing cars had the bigger tails. It seemed you had to really know tire wear, fuel, and stay out of trouble, gave plenty of time for something to "happen".    I am not sure the current "break in the middle" does that, but it's something different.

I would be OK with getting rid of time trials all together.

Random draw for heats, reverse starting lineup, run heat again, best cumulative finish gets the most points

But I'm just speculating & making suggestions, present format is OK too, thoroughly enjoyable this year!