Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Plus smaller injector stacks lower engine compression and a flat wing angle and smaller side panels on the wings

Spot on regarding wings and tires to reduce that horsepower.  Make the tires hard like hockey pucks, but the sad thing it is not only the motor shops making money on this, the biggest problem is Hoosier Racing Tire and them being in the back pockets of the tracks and race organizations. With harder tires and stricter rules on wings, you will make it that you will not need all that horsepower.

T Mac won a WoO race with a motor that had 18 nights of racing on it. That's why I chuckle at all the posters who think motors need rebuilt every 6 to 8 races to stay competitive. 

If you chuckle, you must then have the correct number. How often do the high dollar engines the top WoO teams use get a refresh? I'll admit I'm not certain. Another question. When a team does an engine change beacause of lack of performance, and the next one isn't the answer so they do another engine swap.......what becomes of the two engines? I have seen high dollar teams make more than one engine change in a night.

So if we are going make 410's run the speed of 305's why not just get rid of anything faster than a 305. Or maybe we could get rid of the cubic inch limit and let the engine builders make horse power cheaper.

C'mon now........Sprint car racing isn't about just sheer speed. The 410 will always produce more responsiveness and acceleration than the smaller engines. The torque potential alone allows for that. That becomes a neccessary driving characteristic when the horse power is reduced. Surely you can realize that. Plus......how many 360 teams would be able to begin running the 410 engines if things were less costly? And how much quicker would the 305 guys be able to advance up in class?  This isn't about eliminating anything, this is about increasing the numbers. There would still be the need for regional series' to exist. Maybe those groups or some of them would be able to abandon the 360's and begin running 410's. The sport for around 30 years has been bringing in "less costly" ways to race sprint cars, only to see the costs continue to escalete out of sight for all engine sizes. So in a nutshell, more engine classes has not been the answer.

Well I dont think anyone wants to knock the speed down to a 305 lol. But if they could knock it back to where 820-850 hp could be competitive again... that opens up the door for a lot of older or used 410's that are floating around out there for 15-25k. Obviously you dont need every last bit of hp you can buy to compete at most tracks... but the Eldoras and Knoxvilles and other large wide open momentum tracks, you will be out to lunch being 100hp down. I agree with a wing and tire formula to take some grip away for a weekly Knoxville show, to attract some more cars that dont have big smoke motors, but then thats more stuff that travelling teams have to buy to run there occasionally. Just watch, IRA will be running there this weekend. A lot of those motors are in the 800-850 range... bet the majority are at least 4-5 tenths off pace.

Right from Paul Kistler 2 years ago, 600 Big Track (Knoxville) laps, 800-1000 laps on average for the small/mid tracks. Of course there are always people who can stretch it further, or not as far. There are more factors that go into it than just simply counting laps, internals being used have a large say in those numbers, as well as how hard you are spinning them. Win on a 3/8 mile with a motor thats 18 nights old? very believable. Win at a Knoxville in a WOO show with that motor? I would find that hard to believe... with the spring pressures those motors make, I find it hard to believe you wouldnt be giving up some top end with that many laps on the valve train.

     I see what you're saying but I feel you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. It's not the idea of simply slowing down the cars. It's a matter of doing something before they become extinct. At the rate things are going now, winged sprint cars could be extinct in 10-15 years. Really.

      Compare the number tracks running some kind of weekly sprint car program 15 years ago to today. If local sprint car racing goes away so does national sprint car racing. The WoO, Allstars, etc. depend on local racers to fill their fields. No local racers, no full fields, eventually not enough fan interest to sell the tickets.

     Sorry if I sound preachy but I'm seeing the sport I'm passionate about slowly withering away. The parties involved in the sport need to get together and recognize what the problems are and then start working on repairs.

I just know T Mac has debunked the every 6 to 8 races rebuild theory more than once on this board. Maybe the big money teams do it that often. But it apparently is not totally necessary. If Schatz won races dragging an anvil behind his car everyone would soon be doing that too. Doesn't mean you need to do it to win.

If you make them run rock hard tires that can only hook up 500hp you will still see the richer teams swap engines during the night. No way to stop a guy with money from spending it. Want proof, look at the $20000 racesaver engines.

16 square foot top wing and no rules on motors? Maybe that would work? Does anybody know if there is a crate motor that is powerful enough to compete with a 410 on smaller tracks? If so it seems like a no brainer to allow such a motor to compete except for ticking off the big time builders. Not sure what the solution is but our sport is dying and NOBODY is stepping up to find a solution at the 410 level. 

A little tidbit for everyone.

Last Saturday we had 39 Racesaver sprints in the pits, causing us to run a C Feature. Not many years ago we struggled to have 15 sprinters.

In my opinion, the only thing keeping sprint car racing alive IS the Racesaver class.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

Yay.... Future sprint car racing will only be 305s. 

So, you want drivers who have just now found a class that they can afford to step up into classes that, according to this thread at least, have costs that are clearly out of hand and constantly rising?? Yes, there are some who may eventually do so, but most are just weekend warriors; living out their dreams of racing sprint cars.

As for sprint car racing being only Racesavers (please don't call them 305's as there are a bajillion 305 classes but only 1 Racesaver class), I did not say that. I said that they are the future as they allow drivers to get into a sprint car, find their footing and, if they are willing and able, move up to a higher class, if and when they can afford it.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

You are correct.....the Racesaver class could very well be the stepping stone for many drivers. As long as the costs stay in line there is no reason why it shouldn't. It's an entertaining class and nearly all of the participants take a great deal of pride in their cars. There are some mighty fine looking rides!

The only thing I would add is that this issue isn't just a problem with sprint car racing.   In the Dallas area I've watched several classes that were once popular slowly fall victim to rising costs and eventually go away completely.   New classes get started that are cheap initially and become popular.   Then the engine rules get more and more out of hand and tracks don't always tech the cars anyway.  Eventually car counts start dropping and then some promoters drop them when they don't have enough car count to justify their purse.   A great example of this is the limited mod class that runs with the WoO at Devils Bowl.   That class started with cheap tires, 9:1 compression rule, and a .450 lift cam.   The class grew very quickly.   It didn't take long for them to open up the tire rules, change the compression and lift rules and allow other things.    Now you have to have a $15k or better engine just to compete.  All for a class that pays maybe $300 for a weekly show.

The racers themselves cause a good bit of this.   Always willing to spend a little more than the next guy to get the competitive edge, legal or illegal.   The promoters are probably most to blame though for not keeping things in check.   For 410 racing it sounds like all of the team owners, promoters, and sanctioning bodies need to get together on it and discuss solutions.    I don't see it ever happening though.     

This sounds a lot like the discussions I read on the dirt late model forums also.  I am a fan of both.  See some of the same issues in both.  Of course, the engine is the easy answer since it is the most costly piece, but it would seem sensible tire & wing rules could bring more of the mid tier guys back into the ball game where they could be competitive more often. 

The dirt late models have gone overboard with some of the body work & stuff with high dollar shock packages.  It is being reflected in car counts both at major events & on a regional/local level.  Here in Illinois, only a few tracks run the super late model on a weekly basis anymore.  Lots of tracks have gone to the crate motor late model or modifieds as the top class.  The World 100 drew upwards of 200 cars as recently as 10 years ago & it now just barely cracks the 100 mark.  

Something will need to change in the future or both of these forms of racing will start to fade away.  As mentioned above, the lack of a local class presence will eventually lead to problems at the national level.  Look at the outlaws now when they go to places that aren't 410 hotbeds.  They are running shows with barely 20 cars.  Same thing happens on the late model side.  And there are fewer & fewer hotbeds with each passing year.    

Racing has always cost too much. I really do agree that it had to do with needing the high dollar half mile motors. 

Format also has a lot to do with it. 

Racers love the ASCoC format b/c the small low budget guy has a chance to make the show 

Blazer said " It's an entertaining class and nearly all of the participants take a great deal of pride in their cars. There are some mighty fine looking rides!"

This young racer finally turned 14 and moved up from karts and mini-sprints to this ride:

https://www.facebook.com/GroppRacing554/photos/a.1126497084043704.1073741829.1125410707485675/2215021081857960/?type=3&theater

Picture courtesy of Brandon Anderson at www.dirttrackimages.com

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

I'll stand by my remarks. Anybody with doubt needs to YouTube the Eagle Raceway Racesaver Nationals........some great footage from RacinBoys and other videos, also. Some great wheel to wheel crowded action. As many as four wide on many laps. I'm not sellin.....I'm just tellin    Engine size a problem my ass. This is some good racing. BTW....sharp looking car that #54! Thanks EPSG (we do agree on some things)