Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

It's time for Knoxville to change the point format for the Knoxville Nationals.  There is no way a driver should get as many points for qualifying (200 points) as winning the feature in qualifying nights.  Aren't we there to see drivers race , not to qualify. 

Need to change the format of the whole thing. At least half of all time trial shows this year -WoO, HL,PAPosse- have been won from the front row with ZERO passes for the lead. Someone said this is the fourth year in a row for Knoxville.

So, if you start in the front row, there's a 50% chance you're gonna win. And if you're Kyle Larson, it's about 95% - worth a red eye flight half way across the country for the win and $200K.

I'm not sure what people want.  They force drivers to lay down the best lap possible, which puts them out of a transfer and forces them to race for the prelim feature.  If drivers are not able to, they have to work their asses off to get into the prelim feature, and once in the feature, they have to race their asses off to get to advance in the feature to advance to the Saturday feature.  This is pretty much as much handicapping as anyone can do to create fantastic racing. 

Then, in the same breath, after complaining how difficult it is for the fast guys to qualify for the A-main because of the points and invert system, we complain that we rewarded the guys who actually executed this system to perfection and landed towards the front.  

So, which is it?  Is the points system too tough and puts fast cars at a disadvantage?  Or are we giving the guys who actually performed too much?  It can only be one or the other.  Complain all you want about Larson and Sheldon starting and finishing 1-2.  Remember, this system had both of these cars come from deep in their heat, and 8th in the feature on Wednesday and Thursday nights.  They system worked for supplying great racing.  I don't think there was anything at all that was going to create great racing at the front of that field, on that track, on Saturday night.  I've seen enough tracks like that after a rain delay.  

Have to agree... change format.  200 points for qualifying and the luck of the pill draw and when a driver goes out to qualify is having too much impact.  

Only thing I'd change is go back to inverting 10.

And next year I want Wolfgang in a Weikert #29 ripping some hot laps. 

Yep, you knew this thread would come out as it does every year after the Nat's. I don't watch the nationals, just follow the racing through the results I read. I wish every race ran the nationals format, what is wrong with it? Everyone has to learn to time well these days, but can they get to the front of their heat with an eight car invert? There's no sand bagging or letting up at all event long.. The cream always seems rise to the top at the Nat's.

Format does NOT need to be changed. Quit crying about it. Qualifying is 200points because everyone qualifies against each other and the amount of cars that each qualifying night has. Most years, each qualifying night has the potential of going over 50cars, and they use 2pts to differentiate each position to for all of you math whiz's that do not understand how numbers work, 50x2 =100, therefore you do not have enough points to cover 50+ cars, This means its not the total amount of points, its the amount of points between positions you honor roll students you. 

Now i know some will say, but but but, the heats are only 100pts. Again, look at the difference between positions. Heats have a difference of 3pts per position. This means the drivers who qualify poorly can help themselves in 2 ways. 1 by finishing high in the heat scoring the most points and closing the gap and getting into the feature keeping the high qualifiers out of the feature (see the past 4-5years). Therefore, the heats are actually more important than qualifying, I know a lot of you are going to have an issue understanding that one. 

Now if you thought those 2 concepts were hard, you will really be lost now. Feature goes back to 200 because, you guessed it, ~50cars per night, 2pts between spots. Now here is where some of you think you have the answer because it will be assumed, that the difference in feature points should not be the same as qualifying because that makes qualifying more important. Wrong again. The feature is set apart because you have to actually be IN the feature to score a high amount of points. Not everyone has that opportunity because of the heat races and lower mains. 

So no, it is not time for Knoxville to change the format. All of the people who were upfront, there is zero argument that they were fast. I am sorry (not really at all) that the race was not Talladega but it still was a good race. But 8 straight sellout years, the years prior to that being close to sellouts, I think that says keep the format the way it is over people complaining just because of who won or because of the amount of passes for the lead when there was racing all throughout the field on a heavy track.

Well said. Tanner Holmes went + 13 in the A and + 7 in the B, so clearly the track was racey, which was even more impressive considering the amount of rain and a day show. Marks went +9, Schuchart + 7, Sunshine +8. The racing was good. Larson was the class of the field. You could have started him 10th and he still would have won it. 

This is modern day Sprint car racing now and no matter what you do your not gonna make everyone happy. It's not the tracks fault it's not the drivers fault and it isn't the format it's just the way it is now. Everybody wants it to be the way it used to be. Well with the way the cars the tires the wings and everything else are this is what it is. Is watching Larson lead all fifty laps great ? No but I don't know what is gonna make it better and no matter what you do people are gonna complain. People were all over the Grove a couple weeks ago about the racing but was watching Larson leading every lap in the final any better?

Definitely not. The cream rises to the top because time trials, heats and the feature all matter. The drivers inverted to the front of the heats are buried in points. The slow guys from qualifying are not the drivers in the Saturday night A main. The high points drivers were good all night long.

4 of 6 years (a main) 66.67% front row winner nationals.  

18 of 32 2026 races 56.25% front row winner HL

28 OF 49 2026 races 57.14% front row winners WoO

No matter the format the winner is more than likely coming from the front row. 

HL Has had 0 of 32 races won from row 4 on back this year.  

WoO has had 5 of 49 races won from row 4 on back this year.  

So I guess they should switch it to WoO format because that's the only chance of a winner coming from row 4 on back?  

You and I talked in Knoxville Thursday.  Like we agreed, there are 3 or 4 different ways to get into the show.  The most inaccurate thing I hear people say every year is "the pill draw is everything."  Bogus.  Go back and look at the results from each year of the Nationals.  Winners of the nationals have drawn the 1-75 pill over the past 20 years.  Great cars, setup correctly, with a great driver will time well no matter when they go out.  You don't have to have 190+ points in qualifying to win the Nationals.  Lots of guys have qualified average and made the A confortably and even won. 

Also, getting 1st pill draw, and getting quick time also means nothing--unless you're prepared to back it up from the 4th row of your heat.  Matt Juhl did it a few years ago.  Got his 200 points.  Started 8th in the first heat.  What do you think happened?  No offense to Matt Juhl, but he isn't coming through 4 cars in the first, narrow heat race?  He was in the B (or C) on qualifying night and ended up coming back Friday night if memory serves me.  It rewards those who are fast!  You cannot just be fast in qualifying.  That is a myth.    

You can:

1.  Qualify fast.  Pass 3 or 4 cars in your heat to get into the A.  And pass a few cars in the A to advance to Championship Saturday A.

2.  Qualify fast.  Miss the transfer in your heat.  Transer to the back of the A from the B.  Make a charge from the back to the top 10 and advance to the Championship Saturday A.

3.  Qualify average.  You start 4-6th in your heat.  Maintain or pass a few cars to get into the A.  Make a run at some cars in the night's A main to advance to the Championship Saturday A.  

4.  Qualify average.  Miss your transfer in the heat.  Get to the top 4 of the B main on qualifying night.  Make a run at some cars in the A, and make your way into Championship Saturday A.

All of these scenarios put cars in the A on Saturday night this year, and in years past.  One thing you cannot do, is come out and qualify poorly.  And every single car owner, crew chief, and driver knows this.  The only people that get whiny about it, are fans that can't seem to grasp all of the scenarios that can get you to the show.  The pill draw only means something if the car and driver are fast.  If they're not fast enough to race from the back of a heat, it doesn't matter when their pill draw is.  They're gonna be done unless they can race their way to the top 4 in the B main on qualifying night.  Either way, at some point, they'll need to be fast to make the show.  That's why I love the format.  

Correct and lets not forget the 5th but yet least likely scenario. Average through all 3 or have a tough break in 1, have to start in the top 10 of the B to win like Schatz 1 year. Very unlikely to win, but plenty have come from the back to get great finishes. Gravel has done it a couple of times, Schatz, Schuchart, and Saturday both Holmes and Macedo were looking fast from the back. 

And as we talked, is there a winner of the Nationals in the past couple of decades that did not deserve to win? Could not think of one. The only one that had a very low minor arguement would have been Shaffer's 2010 due to Sammy blowing the tire and Schatz engine laying down BUT still deserved to win. But I cannot think of a Nationals were anyone who did not come out of the B where I would say, yeah if they could have gotten in the outcome would have been different.  And I think that is why it is the best race probably in the country because it is one of the few big races now where the best car, team, and driver wins. 

Yes, I forgot 2 scenarios.  The one you mention.  And the one most Friday nights provide---Hard Knox Night.  

And no, there is no one that hasn't earned every inch of winning the Nationals.  There is no possible way to luck your way to a win.  You can get some good luck to help you get there, but at some point you were as fast as anyone else in the field prior to Saturday night.  You cannot lucky pill draw your way to championship night.  You've gotta follow up the qualifying somewhere else during the weekend.  

How 'bout a small tweak? Split the time trials into two groups, like at a WoO event. This would even out the bad timing order draw a bit.

Please dont change a thing.   You have a lot of points in qualifing making that important, you have big inverts in the heats and A main events on Wed and Thurs.   The person with the most points have earned the right to be up front in the A main.

The qualifying segment is the only part I think is off. Marks is the perfect example. I think he went out next to last in qualifying and was something like 24th fastest. 

He went from 4th to 1st in his heat. 

He went from 11th to 3rd in the feature. 

Using the regular point system he didn't qualify for the A-main on Saturday. He would have been in the front row of the B on Saturday. Was he one of the fastest cars n his qualifying night? For sure. Did he move forward? Absolutely. Was he only the 18th best car overall on the two qualifying nights? I think that would be a hard position to defend. 

There is no perfect system, but I think the qualifying order could at least be broken down into an A and B so we don't have to compare the 1st and 50th car unfairly. With that many cars I can't think of another program that doesn't at least break the qualifying into two sections. 

I'm never going to argue that the Nationals are f'ed or stupid. They're great. Love them, but we should all be open to a little introspection and analysis. My idea? Qualifying A gets the inside lane of the heat races. Qualifying B gets the outside of the heat races. 

I agree about having split time trials but other than that I really don't know what you could do make it better but it would be a good start. I mean it's the biggest most talented field you'll see all year.

Then you'd have to run 6 heats. I like that the format is hard and forces a lot of passing on the prelim nights.

The format change I would make is to invert the heat race order. It really isn't fair at all that the quick time has to go out on a wet track which makes passing very difficult where the 5th quickest gets to go out on a much wider track. Other than that, it's perfect.

Now to preface this, I agree with you that I come to watch the drivers race and not qualify.  However this is a "special" event and I like the special format.  I was able to watch Wednesday and Thursday's show, unfortunately I didn't see the "Friday" or Saturday show.  I watched on Dirtvision and from what I saw on the Wednesday and Thursday night shows, I was very happy with the racing that I watched.  Kyle Larson has won 4 of the last 6 Knoxville Nationals, I think many would regard him as the best sprint car racer in the world right now.  So the best sprint car racer has won the biggest race in the country 4 of the last 6 years.  I guess that would tell me that this format isn't all about luck.  Believe me, I'm with you in that I hate time trials with a passion.  However, what's a fair way to seed everyone?  As what's been pointed out the point totals being what they are, aren't about importance of the race but with who you're racing against.  For example in the time trials, only one guy gets 200 points and down from there.  Same with the features, one guy gets 200 points and it goes down from there.  But in the heats there's five people that are going to get 100 points, five will get 96 points and on down the line.

It's a special, leave it be.  the format has made for some very good racing.