Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Outlaws format is awesome

Greatest Show on Dirt!

If that was a HL show the winner would've come from at least 18th.

..but HL, but HL...

Didn't Dylan Norris have the same opportunity?

So did Brent Marks at the Kings Royal but people were bent because Macri did it.

First time in history an Outlaw show at the Grove was won from the pole too. Can't remember that ever happening before.

Awww, how cute.  A format bash.  Let me guess, you'd prefer the hot new High Limit format, right?  Some numbers for you:

Number of races won from the front row in first 41 WoO races this year:  21   (14 from pole, 7 from 2nd) for 51%

(I don't have the numbers from the past 5 yet included)

Nuimber of races won from the front row of the 32 HL races this year:     18   (12 from the pole, 6 from 2nd) for 56%

What about 3rd?   2 of 41 for WoO for 5%.   6 of 32 for HL for 19%

4th?   7 of 41 for WoO for 17%        3 of 32 for HL for 10%

So, winning from front 2 rows:  WoO 30 of 41 for 73%       HL 27 of 32 for 84%

But at least qualifying isn't as crucial for the HIgh Limit right?   10 of 32 winners in High Limit were quick time.  4 of 32 winners were 2nd quick time.  4 of 32 were 3rd quick.  And, 2 of 32 were 4th quick.  That's 20 of 32 (62.5%) of winners qualified in the top 4.  (of their flights)

Both series formats favor, heavily, fast qualifying times.  Both series put their quick qualifiers immediately into position to advance to the A-feature and the dash.  Both.  Slightly different way to get there, but both do.  Like the HL wheel?  I do too.   I think it's cool.  You know the odds of spinning the wheel for pole of dash and drawing a number out of a hat, prior to any numbers being drawn?  Identical.  

Want an invert?  Great, we'll just invert 8 or 10 cars and watch Dietz or DD win from the pole.  WTF is the difference?  (besides, the Posse got that wish last week at the KR)

Williams Grove blows ass.  Local shows with a noticeable difference in cars may produce better racing.  I can count on one hand the number of barn burner features I've watched at the Grove.  Quit blaming a format.  I see the stands were full last night which means there must not have been any paint drying, or big church clocks for all of the locals could go stare at for 3 hours. Because both would be more exciting.  I knew the last 2 nights would suck before I turned them on.  I refrained on Friday night.  Last night I was bored.  Yep, just like I imagined.  

WoO format will be on display at I-55 this weekend.  After Friday and Saturday are over, let me know if you notice any difference in the quality of shows when compared to the Grove.  

My list of unforgetable Grove races:

1.  

Love the fact that you only comment on races where you were in attendance.

The only purpose of those who don't go to the races and instead complain about them, is to make rear ends tired. 

I was kind of hoping someone would do the percentages of winners from the front row at Williams Grove so far this year. That would be an interesting comparison to see how much betater the format for weekly shows is than for the travelers.

You can look at all these stats on SprintCarRatings.com

For Williams Grove, 10 of 15 races this year won from the front row, the other 5 from the 2nd row.  Here are the stats (get to this on the site by using menu 'Stats - Track Stats - Wing 410 - Pennsylvania - Williams Grove'

Sprint Car Ratings - Williams Grove Track Stats

In comparing the Outlaws and High Limit formats, I wrote an article explaining the numbers between the 2, and they aren't much different.  Time well, make the dash, both formats require and reward those things (no surprise).

Sprint Car Ratings on X: "Outlaws and High Limit Formats - by the numbers" / X

Sprint Car Ratings 'By the Numbers' Articles (@SprintCarRating) / X

Some of last years WoO races at the Grove were very good including the National Open, but all 4 of them this year have been snoozers. No one complained when Kahne won earlier this year with the exact same situation. But the wrong guy wins and people get upset. 

Been going to the grove for over 40 years, My list of unforgetable races there is about 5-6 more than yours. I go there a couple of time a year just to hang out with friends and hope that I might not see a snoozer. On the other hand, I noticed that Knoxville and Husets had drivers passing six or more cars to move forward in their features, I thought that wasn't possible in winged racing? Do you think Dietz and dd could sandbag their way to the front row? lol..

On the right tracks and under the right conditions, winged cars can definitely pass.  On a wet, heavy track, almost anywhere--no.  At the Grove with one of the national tours on the track--no.   At Knoxville when they had all day to work in the track, and sunny dry conditions--sure.  I've seen plenty of races at Knoxville to know that track is usually very racy.  The Grove is not.  Eldora (and about every other track in the world) after a 6:00 pm heavy rain shower, is not.  

I'm sure someone who has gone to the Grove for 40 years would have a few memorable moments.  I have none, but have only watched from afar.  I will be in the stands in Knoxville this weekend.  I will have I-55 on my phone while watching the 360 Nats.  If the Outlaws were at the Grove, I'd have my phone in my pocket.  It's that bad.  The race ended at about midnight on Saturday night and I was pissed I didn't watch 3's Company reruns instead.  

(So you know, I-55 will have the same format as the Grove, and barring a wet track, there will be a ton of movement in the field---Outlaw format or not---and all of the right guys will be up front fighting--no gimmies)  

Love your stats and website.  Fun facts.  Avg start of hl A winner is 2.5.  Avg start of WoO winner is 3.2.  No HL race won from farther back than 6th all year.  5 or 6 WoO races won beyond 6th.   Lowest time trial result to win hl A main this year is 13th.  WoO has had 5 or won from 14th on back but hey people just bash the one that's actually produced more passing.   Gotta love casual fans who ignore the facts.  

I may have embelished slightly.  I know there have been some good races, but you get my point.  Also, your comment on Kahne---everyone loved it, didn't they?  The Posse guy from Washington?  The win from the pole just proved the dominance of the WA/PA Posse, over the WoO right?  LMAO.  Fast forward to Gravel winning from the same spot, format is the only reason the golden boy won.  You're spot on.  What a bunch of turds.  

I use your site religiously Bill.  The stats you provide don't lie.  

If you Hosers have not checked out Bill's stats site yet, check it out.  You can compare drivers this season head-to-head.  As many of us predicted at the start of this season, with Sweet retiring, Rico's early struggles, and Day and Larson no longer High Limit drivers, the WoO has had the deeper field this season.  

Using Bill's site, I did the best I could to project the points standings if all 20 of the top-10 drivers from each series ran against each other all season for one title:  (not a power ranking now--If they had run the entire season from February to now--give or take a position or 2 with each driver since they all ran different numbers of races together) 

1.  Gravel

2.  Reutzel

3.  Buddy

4.  Sheldon

5.  Ca. Macedo

6.  Logan

7.  Donny

8.  Rico

9.  Garet

10. Marks

11.  Courtney

12.  Gio

13.  Co. Macedo

14.  Tanner Holmes

15.  Windom

16.  Pursley

17.  Madsen

18.  Peck

19.  Thorson

20.  Balog

Once again, this is not a list of my favorite drivers ranked in order.  It is not a power ranking of where these guys are now---if it were, Rico would be much higher for example.  This is a collection of points and finish positions averaged in races they have run against each other, head-to-head, for the entire 2026 season so far. 

This is only based on when these guys run against each other---nothing to do with when they are running with their perspective series.  Also, there are a few races in there where some of the lower points guys on the Outlaws used provisionals that the HL guys did not have available, but the number of times that happened is very low, and would not skew the numbers more than a spot or 2 at most.  

Some of you are going to say--"But Marks beat the Outlaws, and Gravel, at Knoxville in June.  How can Gravel be 1, and Marks be 10?"  That's were Bill's site come in.  Marks and Gravel have gone head-to-head 16 times.  Marks won 1 of those 16 races.  Gravel won 2.  Marks average finish was 12.8.  Gravels was 6.1.  Marks finished ahead of Gravel 2 times.  Gravel finished ahead of Marks 14 times.  

You can do this for every single driver...

I should've just followed my original intentions and just watched Knoxville.   Watching WoO @ Grove was  a complete waste of time.