Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

All the talk about the World of Outlaws and High Limit boils down to talk about money, how much and who's going to get it. That's no different than the talk about the cost of sprint car racing that probably started when the 2nd ever sprint car hit the track.

That which must be mentioned in sprint car talk is cost containment! It's like Mark Twain is quoted as saying about the weather, "everybody talks about the weather, but nobody ever does anything about it". Instead of  trying to raise the payouts for top teams- more than likely by raising ticket prices- why not put that same amount of effort into cost containment for every car in the field?

For example, why does that 410 motor cost $70,000? What would it take to make the relative cost of a 410 motor more like $50,000? 410 sprint car racing has 2 major leagues, half a dozen minor leagues, and about 14 weekly tracks. That's a lot of smart people that could probably come up with ideas to contain costs. How much easier would it be to field a car, if the cost to race dropped by $1000 per night? If nobody worries about cost containment, 410 sprint car racing will continue to shrink until it's gone.

They say the cheapest HP is cubic inches. How about doing away with 410 cubic inch limit. Make the wing a little smaller and you only hook up so much power. On another note sprint car engines cost $70,000 because customers will pay it to win.

first Murphy well stated.

Longtimetime fan - AMEN 100%

I second this.  Great questions Murphy.  Longtimefan---Amen 100% as well.  

Now, down to Murphy's question.  I brought this up a few years ago.  I want to be very, very clear on this:  I don't support this at all, so don't start roasting me thinking I support it.  I'm simply stating there are only 2 ways to control the cost of motors. 

1.  Motor claim.  I want to be VERY clear--I DON'T WANT A MOTOR CLAIM--I AM OPPOSED.  However, this is one way to control the cost of motors.  Any car in the top-10, can claim the motor from anyone on the podium for $_________ (set amount here) and if refused, the owner/driver keeps the motor but forfeits all points and money for the night.  Once again, before you all shoot the messenger, I think 410 racing should be free of this rule.  But, since we're all complaining about the weather, and never do anything about it-----this is one way to do something about it.  It would have to be a car that finishes in the top-10, because we can't have cars finishing 24th running a worn out 360 claiming motors.  

2.  Other option---crate motors.  Once again, I DON'T WANT CRATE MOTORS---I AM OPPOSED.  But, the question was asked.  And this would do it.  Have some "economy" 410 motors quoted by various manufacturers, and have a committee approve numerous motors on a 2 or 3 year cycle, with set costs spelled out by the manufacturer.  

I don't want either of these, but if you want to get serious about bringing down motor costs, both of these options would do it.  I don't think the 410 class is the place for this, and I have no skin in the game, so I give no craps how much money teams are willing (not forced) to spend on motors.  So all I did was answer a question.  

They say the cheapest HP is cubic inches. How about doing away with 410 cubic inch limit. Make the wing a little smaller and you only hook up so much power. On another note sprint car engines cost $70,000 because customers will pay it to win.

I second this.  Great questions Murphy.  Longtimefan---Amen 100% as well.  

Now, down to Murphy's question.  I brought this up a few years ago.  I want to be very, very clear on this:  I don't support this at all, so don't start roasting me thinking I support it.  I'm simply stating there are only 2 ways to control the cost of motors. 

1.  Motor claim.  I want to be VERY clear--I DON'T WANT A MOTOR CLAIM--I AM OPPOSED.  However, this is one way to control the cost of motors.  Any car in the top-10, can claim the motor from anyone on the podium for $_________ (set amount here) and if refused, the owner/driver keeps the motor but forfeits all points and money for the night.  Once again, before you all shoot the messenger, I think 410 racing should be free of this rule.  But, since we're all complaining about the weather, and never do anything about it-----this is one way to do something about it.  It would have to be a car that finishes in the top-10, because we can't have cars finishing 24th running a worn out 360 claiming motors.  

2.  Other option---crate motors.  Once again, I DON'T WANT CRATE MOTORS---I AM OPPOSED.  But, the question was asked.  And this would do it.  Have some "economy" 410 motors quoted by various manufacturers, and have a committee approve numerous motors on a 2 or 3 year cycle, with set costs spelled out by the manufacturer.  

I don't want either of these, but if you want to get serious about bringing down motor costs, both of these options would do it.  I don't think the 410 class is the place for this, and I have no skin in the game, so I give no craps how much money teams are willing (not forced) to spend on motors.  So all I did was answer a question.  

the board has been enjoyable to read.

Egras - like you I agree that you listed two tangible ways to cut costs and like you i personally don't like either....

As far as motors let them build them from stock or the proverbial "junkyard" steel blocks or the old 454 chevy big block.

From a different angle:

IMHO the real reason for the insane Cubic Dollars madness is the cars have become so hooked up/locked down that people can buy more horsepower to win....

unhook the cars - i can think of two ways:

1. less square feet of wing.
2. smaller and harder right rears.

Current motor and potential cost saving (less frequent rebuilds):

a compression change....I do believe some drivers, owners,  and crew chiefs have discussed enforcing a better compression rule - help here i get it backwards 12 to 1 and 15 to 1 i think 410's are currently 12 to 1 and people are suggesting 15 to 1.  

i would love to hear others thoughts.....

one "expense savor" in quotes because i think it is laughable was the elimination of shock adjustment cables (USAC has them)....I say go to a standard shock and let them adjust - the cables are cheap...

In a way, you're pretty much describing Race Saver / IMCA sprint car engines. That class of sprint cars provides some pretty good racing, but usually only on smaller tracks.

I differ with you on giving a hoot about how much the wealthy teams spend. Reason being, if costs keep increasing at the current rate, local 410 racing will evaporate, and the ability of WoO, H-L and other groups to have enough cars to put on a race gets dicey.

"If costs keep increasing at the current rate" could be applied to about any 10 year period of racing over the past 100 years.  If I remember correctly, an expensive 410 motor 30 years ago, back in 1995, was around $25,000-30,000.  Today,  a good 410 is in the range of $60,000-70,000.  I hate to say it, but that is right in line with inflation.   2.5-3.0% annual increase.  I really don't find that to be all that out of line. 

You could argue the purses have not kept up with inflation, but:  1.  I think overall purses have increased more than most have given credit for when you look at winnings and points payouts.  (I know everyone wants to base everything on the fact that the King's Royal paid $50,000 to win for decades, but that is one race)  2.  The money to get your company name on one of those haulers has gone up significantly.  

It's all relative.  

I disagree. Of course inflation has played a part in the cost of everything. If it's all relative, the tracks that used to have weekly 410 racing would still have 410 racing. The purses, points funds and ticket prices would just be relatively higher. Instead, the cost of 410 sprint cars (and 360's, etc.) has gone up at such a higher rate that the local tracks can't afford to have them. No local 410 racing = no touring 410 racing in the future.

20 years ago, within a 2 hour drive from my house, on a weekly basis I could see:
5 tracks that ran 410's
4 tracks that ran 360's in addition the 3of the 5 above that ran 360's and 410's
5 tracks that occasional ran specials of one or the other classes

the board has been enjoyable to read.

Egras - like you I agree that you listed two tangible ways to cut costs and like you i personally don't like either....

As far as motors let them build them from stock or the proverbial "junkyard" steel blocks or the old 454 chevy big block.

From a different angle:

IMHO the real reason for the insane Cubic Dollars madness is the cars have become so hooked up/locked down that people can buy more horsepower to win....

unhook the cars - i can think of two ways:

1. less square feet of wing.
2. smaller and harder right rears.

Current motor and potential cost saving (less frequent rebuilds):

a compression change....I do believe some drivers, owners,  and crew chiefs have discussed enforcing a better compression rule - help here i get it backwards 12 to 1 and 15 to 1 i think 410's are currently 12 to 1 and people are suggesting 15 to 1.  

i would love to hear others thoughts.....

one "expense savor" in quotes because i think it is laughable was the elimination of shock adjustment cables (USAC has them)....I say go to a standard shock and let them adjust - the cables are cheap...

All the talk about the World of Outlaws and High Limit boils down to talk about money, how much and who's going to get it. That's no different than the talk about the cost of sprint car racing that probably started when the 2nd ever sprint car hit the track.

That which must be mentioned in sprint car talk is cost containment! It's like Mark Twain is quoted as saying about the weather, "everybody talks about the weather, but nobody ever does anything about it". Instead of  trying to raise the payouts for top teams- more than likely by raising ticket prices- why not put that same amount of effort into cost containment for every car in the field?

For example, why does that 410 motor cost $70,000? What would it take to make the relative cost of a 410 motor more like $50,000? 410 sprint car racing has 2 major leagues, half a dozen minor leagues, and about 14 weekly tracks. That's a lot of smart people that could probably come up with ideas to contain costs. How much easier would it be to field a car, if the cost to race dropped by $1000 per night? If nobody worries about cost containment, 410 sprint car racing will continue to shrink until it's gone.

I disagree. Of course inflation has played a part in the cost of everything. If it's all relative, the tracks that used to have weekly 410 racing would still have 410 racing. The purses, points funds and ticket prices would just be relatively higher. Instead, the cost of 410 sprint cars (and 360's, etc.) has gone up at such a higher rate that the local tracks can't afford to have them. No local 410 racing = no touring 410 racing in the future.

20 years ago, within a 2 hour drive from my house, on a weekly basis I could see:
5 tracks that ran 410's
4 tracks that ran 360's in addition the 3of the 5 above that ran 360's and 410's
5 tracks that occasional ran specials of one or the other classes

Murph, I respect your opinion and your observations.  But, you can't disagree with the fact that the cost of a motor has gone up almost exactly the same as inflation in that 30 year period.  The math literally works out so $25-30,000 of 1995 money is equivalent to $60-70,000 of 2025 money.  I don't disagree with your observation that those tracks have closed, etc.  However, if it's because of costs, one of which being motors because it's one you brought up, this is simply not a factor.  Relative cost of motors is almost exactly the same as it was 30 years ago.  

Dang it egras.  The spreadsheet below took less 10minutes to put together and you are pretty close

the touring purses have kept and most likely exceeded.  local regular shows it is close. 

Guys, I don't know that it would be another column to add to your sheet there but these days they send them back to builder to  "freshen" them 410's every 8-10 races at a cost of $8-$10k.  

I may be new to game but I bet that's not how it was when the purse was much less. I guess like you say, its all relative.