Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Just for discussion

HL and WoO co-exist

When HL is running Cali, WoO is Penn... and vice versa

But schedule 8-10 shared major events throughout the year.  

Other than greed and pride, why wouldn't this work?

Would be interesting to hear what some owners, stakeholders really think of this

Why would it be greed?  Can't it just be business and survival?  Pepsi and Coke both exist.  However, rarely will you find a restaurant carrying both because one or the other (or their distributors) made a deal for their product to be sold exclusively at that restaurant or chain.  It's business.  Not greed.  Not personal.  If I'm Coke I'm not sharing my sales with Pepsi and vise versa.  I'm fighting for the right to sell my product exclusively at your restaurant even though there is more than enough demand for both Pepsi and Coke everywhere you go.  Stop taking the WoO and HL thing so personal.  I don't take Pepsi and Coke personal.  

If I'm the WoO, and the HL does indeed pry the King's Royal away in 2027 like I think they will (if not sooner), I immediately schedule a multi-day event or series of shows in another area.  That's not what I'm saying they should or will do, but that's what I'd do.  I wouldn't be able to sit by and watch the drivers and teams under my contract run an event that was a big revenue boost for my business, run for another competing business' financial well-being.  I know the winners share is huge, but only a handful of drivers will really benefit from it, a few wouldn't, and a few will wreck.  It's not like all 12-14 WoO drivers come out of the King's Royal with wealth and riches.  Maybe 1 does.  I'd take my series to the other side of the country or possibly to the Knoxville area.  Why?  Because I'm greedy?  No.  Because I need to turn a profit to survive, or I die.  Sitting on my hands for a weekend while my teams run for another series not only makes me no money, it costs me money.

Everyone needs to stop taking this so personally.  It's just business.   

In your scenario, WoO wouldn't be losing money, just not making it. Why not relax, take the weekend off (for officials) & let the drivers & teams take their chances & let the fans have their kicks?

If WoO scheduled a competing event, I think they would lose some fan support.

LIke the original poster said, they're usually not racing so close together that there is a conflict. People go to the closest race, or not..

I gave up on this a while back - egras just has more stick - to - it - tiveness.  

Flo is not about people in the seats they are about eyes on the stream......this is 100% where HL and WoO differ; whereas, WoO/WRG/Dirtvision are one....eyes on stream or butts in the seats equals the same.....

I can assure HL does not own Flo..... 

So your last sentence in particular is where the rubber meets the highway -  Flo wants the premier events because they want eyes on their stream - they really don't care who shows up at the track because that doesn't affect their bottom line.

If you enjoy flo for more than racing such as myself in regards to wrestling you would be able to recall the wars with the wrestling group and the attempts both legal and personal to hinder Flos desire to be a monopoly in wrestling.

I would be willing to bet the two most streamed sprint car events were the Knoxville Nationals and The Kings Royal.....Flo as they should will most likey stop at nothing to get them.....

the Tusky 50 is a big race here in PA and i love it......streaming numbers that night show more folks were streaming the world 100 from ELDORA than the Tusky 50.....

Arguably the 3rd most recognized event is the National Open from Williamsgrove......so the 3 most recognizable events currently reside with DirtVision......I think most here aren't naive enough to think FLO cares solely about the promotion of the sport of sprintcar racing and would never do anything to undermine and take over any or all of the aforementioned 3 events.

In my world, spending a week in business not making money, is losing money.  Officials still have to be paid.  Dirtvision loses a notch in the belt.  I guess I'm in disbelief that anyone believes they should just lay down, let the High Limit do what they want, play along and it will work out better for everyone.  That's not what businesses do if they want to remain in business.  Before this is all done, you'll not be able to see the best cars in the country together all at once, anywhere.  Unless there is a merger, the war is coming.  Don't say I didn't warn everyone back when the High Limit started their "weekday only" shows.  There can only be one alpha.  Once that alpha is in total control (whether that be by driving the other out of business, or a merger), we'll all be right back where we started when 1/2 the sprint car world hated the WoO for being the alpha.  If the WoO wins, the WoO haters will be pissed.  If the High Limit wins, the WoO haters will be ecstatic without realizing they just have the same thing with a new name.   

This is going great...

Do any of you think more than a couple hundred people in the country spend a lot of time worrying about this? Both exist, if one had 20 full timers few locals would run with them when they come to town. Interest would then fade. 

I think it is all about business too and I will let the 2 businesses do what they feel they need to exist. I think a lot of fans have blown this whole deal out of proportion when it is what it is, a business opportunity. As for the title of the thread, "What Would Be Best for Sprint Car Racing" for me personally would be to go to whatever race I can. The past year I went to several races including WoO races, HL races, USAC race, All Star races, and a couple local track races. These included regular shows, Kings Royal, and the Nationals. I did not care about the business side of the one I was going to or if i negatively impacted the other, I was a race fan and wanted to see a race. All of these with the exception of the Knoxville Nationals were 2hr drives for me. I was willing to pay the ticket prices (although some of them for all are starting to make me put some thought on whether or not to make the trip) and each event I went to for the most part was worth the drive. 

I will say though I have given up the streaming fee and no this is not because I am making a personal stand against the "evil" streaming companies. For me, we are hardly ever home weekend evenings, and we have our own things to be doing during the races to where its not worth paying the subscription price. I believe there is usually a couple of discussions a year about youth sports and how much it effects the sport. I can tell you for me personally, it is effecting it. I think there were about 5 races between WoO & HL that I wanted to attend but could not because of either a game or practice. Same with streaming. 

hammer meet nail - hammer hits nail squarely on the head.

i too went to WoO, HL, USAC on the eastern storm regular shows williamsgrove, Lincoln, Port, Baps, Selinsgrove, &Clinton County.    and like you missed many because of other stuff - grandkids stuff......there are just so many more distractions today or other options for young fans to do.

i've had flo for years and it was originally for wrestling......i think it just went up maybe near $200.00 now but for years it was $150.00 and i watched it year round.....in the winter flo wrestling saved me from boredom!!!!!!

I have dirtvision to......the quantity award goes to flo - quality for me by the slimmest of margins to Dirtvision......and that maybe.......wait for it.....because they have the marque events and those events had the most crossover.

but jeepers count me in as loving the midwek stuff because for me midweek is an easier night of the week more often than not for me to stream....do i think it is sustainable over time - unfortunately not....selfishly i wish it was....i would watch a sprintcar race 7 nights a week whether local, HL, or WoO.

Tough to compare WoO to HL. One is owned by investors the other by, originally, drivers. One wanted money in their pocket the other wanted money available for drivers.  If the Cali Twins wanted drivers to have more choices for big money shows they obviously would not schedule against the huge events. They have different motives and different goals so they are not going to be able to cooperate on every term.

Also, maybe Flo does aquire the KR. How much money do they need to give up to finance that? Most die hard sprint fans who will stream are already signed up. They few new yearly and the few event purchases wouldn't add up to the purse very quickly. So Flonis NOT going to push to acquire this event at any cost.

To answer the question, according to me, having two series in different areas cycling through the country's great. Two events that pay 10-12 G instead of one. Getting together for the big ones is best for all.

Oh boy.  I think you may want to join some other sprint car groups on social media.  This forum is a grain of sand in the social media world that has overtaken sprint car racing.  A couple hundred?  I could go on any one of the sprint car forums I belong to right now, and find 1 thread with a couple hundred responses on this subject.  This topic has been running rampant for the past 2 years on a much bigger scale than what we've been discussing here.  

The WoO LMs sanctioning a big race at Mansfield after WRG abandoned the first revival of that track is not accidental. I assume WRG is planning for an eventual split with Eldora. 

I believe it's already happened.  The WoO announced the 2026 WoO sanctioned King's Royal during this year's event.  Now, it has mysteriously disappeared from the 2026 WoO schedule.   I know the schedule does not get finalized until early next year, but all other events that are sewn up are on the schedule.  If they already announced it, shouldn't it be on there?  I thought it would be 2027.  Now I'm leaning towards the entire King's Royal week being HL for 2026.  

RC Cola for me. Enjoyed the revival of the ASCOC this year and I watch all the USAC and IRA sprint car events. Without regional series and local tracks the HLWoO ain't got squat. I think both series will be fine for a few years but the Elora and Knoxville devotion will tell us a lot and that will be driven by sponsors. HL has the only real star in the entire sport. That goes a long ways and some of those dominos have already fallen. 

If the Kings Royal gets highjacked by HL  I will be forced to start a 'No Kings' movement in Rossburg that weekend.  

How many of those couple hundred responses is the same ten guys beating a dead horse. I don't put much stock into social media bullshit sessions. I have never once had the subject  come up while at a track. I have been to tracks in Indiana, Ohio, Pa. And New Jersey since this came about.

Good wisecrack, but what difference does it make who sponsors it?

Because if it goes the other way there could be a WoO race at another location called the 'Lords Magesty' paying $201,000 to win the 3rd weekend of July.  Sort of like the 'Ohio Raceweek' dust up a few years ago. 

KR is a WoO race now & HL guys still race there. If it switched around, why do you think WoO wouldn't do the same? They allow 4 outside races, no?

Tell me about Ohio Race week. I don't know anything about that

Like someone else said (probably several people) I don't care who sponsors it. More good races, more options in different parts of the country

Let me ask you this---If NBC loses the bid for the 2027 Super Bowl to Fox, NBC will be fine with it, right?  I mean, everyone still gets to see the Super Bowl.  NBC will just be happy for FOX and really not care that they lost it?   Come on man.  The King's Royal is a Dirtvision race, and one of the biggest races for viewership in the world for sprint cars.  Of course it makes a difference to the WoO who has the sanctioning rights to that race.  If the WoO loses that race, whether anyone wants to acknowledge it is a WoO race or not, it will be devastating and I'm not so sure there wouldn't be something scheduled against in on the schedule to retaliate.  We will see... 

Lots of interesting stuff here.  I've just got a couple counter points to others lol before I get to your question.  This is just my opinion and I guess maybe a different perspective or a different way to think about things.

This is a professional sports league, ANY comparison to any other business is apples to oranges.  If I walk into a restaurant and they don't have Mellow Yellow, I get a Mountain Dew and don't think a thing about it.  When I'm done I don't think about how great it would've been to have 30 different soft drink choices or watching who would've ordered what.  Again, this is just my opinion, running a professional sports league like an unrelated business could have catostrophic effects.

The "greed" and "business decisions" are interesting statements to me only because it shows how the same actions can be looked at different based on your perspective.  However, if I was running ANY professional sports league, I would be very careful about "greed" or "business decisions".  Recently I've heard some stuff about NASCAR, I really don't know if it's true but it makes a lot of sense.  Basically, over twenty five years ago NASCAR started negotiating with some TV networks and eventually they made the "business decision" to sign with the highest bidders.  At the time they were the second highest watched sport behind only the NFL.  The TV networks were happy to be partnered with them because of their popularity but of coarse they wanted something too (can't blame them) the first thing was they wanted to promote a new channel that most people didn't have (I think it was FX?) so they ran some races on that channel, it didn't seem like a huge deal at the time but it started the trend of putting events on a channel that not many people get to get more money out of consumers (thankfully that doesn't happen anymore lol).  Was it best for the sport to have an event that a lot of people couldn't see?  Nope but it was a "business decision" or "greed".  Eventually all of our cable bills went up a little bit and we all got the channel and everyone was happy (especially FOX).  Then the networks said "We are loving this but the ratings always drop in September, how do we fix this?".  Together they decided it was because the championship was usually decided by then and that's probably why people weren't watching, I'm not sure what else would start in September that could affect ratings?  So they made the "business decision" to come up with The Chase.  Initially this helped ratings, so it looked like a great deal.  But eventually ratings went down again.  So they thought "maybe it's because guys like Dale Jr. and Jeff Gordon missed "The Chase" and that's why people stopped watching (I still can't think of anything else that that starts in September that could affect ratings) so they tweaked it and then again and then came up with the dumbest points system according to any fan I've ever talked to but every talking head on TV would tell you how great it was because they had to.  Ratings kept tanking, everyone on TV kept talking about how great the sport was doing but more and more people quit watching.  My point in this is NASCAR had the fastest growing sport out there and it was the second most popular sport in the U.S., there's not many sports that can say that.  But "business decisions" or "greed" killed it or I should say tanked everything they worked so hard to build.  Even though at the time they were great decisions in the short term, long term it wasn't at least not for the growth of the sport.  So well doing things like scheduling races to make sure you keep your drivers away from marquee events could seem like a great decision in the short term, eventually it could turn into nobody giving a shit about professional sprint car racing at all.

Now to your question "What's best for Sprint Car racing"?  It's kind of a loaded question because to me there's three parts to sprint car racing being successful.  The owner/drivers, tracks and the fans.  Obviously without the owners/drivers there's no show.  Without the tracks, there's no where for a show.  And without the fans, there's no money for them to do what they do.  So, what's best for the owner/drivers, the split we have now is great for them, there's more high dollar events with watered down competition and there's more full time sprint car teams than there was before HL, so it must be working.  What's best for the tracks, again it's great for them, many tracks can now schedule two high dollar specials and there's lots of tracks that maybe couldn't get an outlaw race in the past that can now maybe get one or the other.  What's best for the fans?  Well, if you're committed to seeing all of the races close to you that now probably costs double but you can look at it another way and say it's more specials you get to see.  From the streaming aspect, three years ago you could stream all of the races with a $250 or $300 subscription, now you need to double that if you want to see all of the races but again you can now say that you have more opportunity to see more races.  My point is, it takes all three parts to be successful.  I think most of us are fans here so you might agree with me here but this split didn't happen to bring in more fans or make it more enjoyable or anything like that.  So as to your question, "what's the best thing for sprint car racing"?  A merger.  As someone else said, there can only be one alpha and that's so true at least when it comes to a professional sports league.  If you want to look at past examples look at indycar racing in the 70s, they had a split and never recovered.  Look at multiple other attempted splits or startup leagues, the only example I can think of that everybody won was the AFL/NFL merger.

Both the WOO and HL need to be careful here in my opinion.  From what I've seen in the past is fans kind of like politics or bickering in sports UNTIL it affects the product they want to watch and then they get pissed and will quit watching.  You can look at the CART/IRL split and even though that's been resolved now forty years later, it's still not as popular as it was.  Another example is the MLB strike in 1994, I don't think baseball has ever recovered from that.  For a lot of people, when they hear millionaires bitching about doing what they do while making their millions by doing it, it turns them off from that person.

Again this is just my opinion.  If I disagree with you it doesn't mean I'm insulting you lol.