Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Anyone have any latest news on possible roller cams for the 305s next year? Heard possible announcement at the banquet.

hoping the news is get a 360 or a 410 ! Late nights ahead for Knoxville again 

They should just get on the Racesaver IMCA bandwagon.

Over 90 Racesaver IMCA sprints at the Nationals at Eagle.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

I believe that was discussed at a meeting once and voted down. When you already have a motor you don't want to have to buy another even if it is cheaper just to keep racing at the same track. Wish they would have started as race saver to begin with.

Better news yet would be "Get a 410 or get out of sprintcars. "

Gee, I really feel sorry for you.

I do not know if this is a good idea or not, but a roller cam costs about $400 and roller lifters about $400.  Nascar rype lifters that alot of 305 use are $700 and hard cam is $700.  They are trying to wind the heck out of these 305 s which they will always do and these flat tappet deals can get shaky at 8000 rpm.

boy isnt that the truth takes them an hour to run 12 laps pathetic. 305's the herpes of sprint car racing

See how quickly they try and screw up a series,I raced but I swear racers can be their own worst enemies.305's started with stock gm 305 heads,now they use aftermarket ones.A year or 2 ago some racers were lobbying for 3 inch stroke cranks trying to make big bore short stroke motors out of them just like the 360's did,now it's roller cams.Some folks never learn.

Actually going with the 3 inch stroke motor would have saved teams money in the long run.  That way you can get away from the 305 block,  They crack too easy,  So then a Dart 305 block is the long term answer.  The whole 305 thing was doomed from the start anyway.  Dry sumps,Engler/Kinsler injections,all the lightwieght internals you arent far from a 360 build.  And if they dont tech the 305's it doesnt make any difference anyway.   The Racesaver wouldnt work at knoxville.  at 450 hp it would be like watching a freeway cruise control race.  

I don't want to argue with anyone, but I want to speak from an a 305 owner/driver standpoint.  You say all these rules are "ruining" the class.  These parts are making it cost too much for a low budget class.  Let me list a few things and tell me what the fix is if we don't go the route that has been taken.

Blocks, GM 305 blocks were never intended for 7000+ RPM.  They are thin, core shift is a huge problem making cylinder walls even thinner.  So you go get a swap meet block for $100 hoping the cylinders will clean up and be usable.  Clean and get all machine work done, I will shoot low at $1000 (if you run drysump, more for drilling oil passage etc).  So you have $1100 in a block that is not made to do what you are doing with it.  This year, 2nd night out I cracked a cylinder wall on a fresh block.  Now I have to do it all again, IF I have another block.  So on the 3rd race, I am in $2200+ just in a block.  Could have got a Dart for that and had a GOOD block to start with.  How many 010 or bowtie 350 blocks can you get for that price?  So big bore short stroke sounds like a cheaper option now doesn't it?  

Heads, same deal.  GM 305 are prone to crack if you get them slightly overheated.  So now we are buying every head we can find just to have under the counter and the shop so we can replace when, not if, they crack.  Dart heads to save the day, buy once, as long as you don't throw a piston into them, I have never heard of a failure on one yet. ( I am sure there has been, but not frequent)

Cams, no brainer.  It's already been mentioned, they don't last.  Hardened/billet flat tappet cams, hardened lifters to go with them.  Cars aren't running the $200 cam out of Speedway.  They are running custom grind high dollar cams.  High dollar cams that will, WILL, burn lobes off and break in half.  I have 2 broken in half on my shelf right now.  So when it breaks, now valves hit pistons, bend rods, ruin heads, etc.  So that 1 part, that "cheaper" flat tappet cam just cost you an entire engine.  I will also mention that there are no good springs for flat tappet cams.  We were changing springs every 2-4 races depending on the set.  So a set of Tool Room roller springs for $550 that will last 20+ races or a set of Tool Room flat tappet for $230 that get changed every 4 races=$1150 in springs for 20 races.......thats twice as much as a roller set.

Drysumps, on a half mile are almost a necessity.  Some guys get them to last without, but I have yet had an engine last more than 2 races up there with wet sump.

Kinsler/Engler injection, I am 50/50 on that stuff.  I had a set of Engler from a previous 360, I didn't buy them for a 305, just what I had on the shelf when I built the 305.  So now I would have to go spend more money on a set of Hilborn because I can't use what I already own???  Money saving at its finest....

I am not saying to open the rules and have at it.  But saying these rules are for "money saving" is a joke.  I have spent more maintaining a 305 race to race than any 360 we have ever owned.  The difference is, we have had more FUN racing 305s than we did running 360.  We don't have a small fortune tied up in an engine, we don't feel like we have to buy new tires to keep up.  We were told at the last meeting that we are turning them too hard, slow them down and they will live longer.  Well, you get the 5 fastest cars to slow down, THEN I will.  But you can bet I won't be the first one to do it, I am not racing for 6th....and I don't think anyone else it either.

And to the guys that want us to move up to 360/410 and get rid of 305.  Message me, I am looking for sponsors for next year....

I remember when the 305's first showed up at Knoxville a few years ago..Yes they were slow, but put on one heck of a show. 17-18 of them running in a pack, passing all over the place. As a fan, I forgot how slow they were because of all the racing. To me 305's are a begining class of sprint cars and shouldn't cost a fortune to race.  I understand a racers mentality, I used to own one and he with the most, usually wins or at least runs up front. Are Racesavers the answer, I have no clue, but I do feel there needs to be something done to stop teams from spending $20000 plus for an engine for a  305. If you want to spend that kind of money, move up to 360's or 410's and leave the 305's to people that are looking for a less inexpensive way to race, learn, and have fun.

Mike that is right on Mike if you are not on the rule committee please get on there.

I agree the racing is very good in the class.  But slow down on the $20k stuff.  There are engines out there that cost that, but the one I won the championship with cost me less than $10K......and that is including the 2nd cam after the 1st one broke in half......

On that same idea, if a 360/410 is high $40s and up, $20k is a cheap alternative.

GM 350 blocks weren't made to run at 7000 rpm's either.Weve all seen what happened with the 360 class, and it got as expensive as it is now by the same arguments.You can add all the suff you mentioned and then your gonna make even more power then other parts will start to fail.If a 305 is gonna be a big bore short stroked, roller cammed dry sump motor the only difference between it and a 360 will be the cubes, heads and high domed pistons.I guess it really doesn't matter to me anymore, you fellas do what you want but weve seen it before.

i personally own an race a 305 (Racesaver) I will tell you after my first season this year a 305 is all that I need to be in. 450hp is all I need under my foot. I haven't grown up around sprint cars, I haven't ?raced mini sprints all my life, an I probably had no business getting in a car, but I absolutely love them an it's all I want to do now. If it wasnt for one person helping me out to make sure I didn't kill myself it probably could have got bad. im just a fireman an I own all my stuff, all funds come out of my pocket alone, if it werent for 305s there's no way I could afford to keep up. 

an lastly before U say there's no room for 305's, just think about what could have happened if I climbed in a 700hp 360 with no expierence, let alone hurt myself, but hurt other people as well as trash somebody else's really really expensive stuff, an DEFINATELY not make any friends doing it. Before you down play the 305 deal think about what it's actually designed for. For some of us, it's all we have.

I talked with a guy several yrs. ago,he raced the 305 class when it first started in my area yrs ago.He said he bought a rebuilt 305 thru a parts for around $800.,put a bigger hyd. cam in it and raced it and was competive at the time,and had just as much fun as the guys and gals doing it now.Now tell me are 305's headed in the right direction.Superchevy 32,I was just a working guy like you when I was fooling with the 305's,it is a great class if they just dont keep going down the  path to screwin it up. 

350 blocks will live for many seasons even in stock 4 bolt main config. even at 8000 rpms as long as the power is kept below 600hp.  compression has a lot to do with life also and a 11 to 1 305 will last a long time. 

No problem with the racesaver idea on a 3/8 or shorter track.  They provide good racing.  If policed fairly they will cut costs.  They just arent for knoxville. 

The dry sump idea is better in the long run,  pick up a used steel or aluminum pan, fresh 3 stage pump and the other items you need and yes it will cost a little more than a wet sump but the reliabilty it adds will save money in the long run.  600.00 Canton wet sump pans are not cheap either. And a good wet sump pan costs that much.

The only thing I can come up with is let them use the 3 inch stroke 4 inch bore 350 blocks,  Flattop piston only,  and a lift/valve spring rule like the racesaver.  When they get teched check for cubes, piston dome, stack size, valve lift and spring tension.  If they wont have the springs to turn more than 7400 and the compression is around 11 to 1 they should be able to run 2 seasons with only a valve spring change.   When you try to run hardend cames, EDM lifters and lots of spring pressure the 305 valvetrain become very unreliable.   Its just to bad the racesaver wasnt 525 to 550 hp instead of 450 because it would work.  But they have to be teched fair.  

Fair teching at Knoxville seems to be a gray area at knoxville Even with 360's 

Oh and 4500.00 injectors dont belong on an entry level class,  sorry if you have spent the money already but one piece hilborns new or hand me down used ones should be on 305's

Whoa, it's a good thing you weren't spectating back in the 60's.  Today's Knoxville 305's turn laps faster than the legends of the sport could imagine was even possible.  You'd have gotten bored with them before the Beach Boys put out their first single and stopped going to races. 

Stan Meissner

Like I said before, you fellas have at, go ahead and make mini 360's out of your 305's, weve seen this before.But I will bet you this, within a couple of yrs. time, all the cars running in the front will be powered by engines from the top sprint car engine builders that are building the high dollar 360's and 410's now, and they sure wont be cheap.I wont even say I told you so, I'll just shake my head and go on.Have at er boys!