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Topic: Port Royal Speedway group Time Trials. Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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tenter
March 04, 2015 at 04:45:48 PM
Joined: 07/16/2008
Posts: 978
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I see Port Royal will be having several races this season using group time trial for the 410's. I don't know how other tracks do this , but Port splits the field, and then times the cars grouped by what heat race they will run. For example , say there are 24 cars in the pits. They will divide them into three heats with 8 cars each . Then they will divide them in half and run time trials with 4 cars in each session . I have no problem with this system. What I don't like is then they invert the top 4 fastest cars in each group for the heat lineups. This will put the fastest car in  each group starting fourth in each heat race. Then they take the top two from each heat into the inversion for the feature. This is where I have a problem. With only eight cars in your time trial group , there is no incentive at all to get the fastest time. Drivers are better off just sandbagging a bit to get a front row spot. Running time trials against a full field would make it almost impossible to sandbag , but against 8 cars it can be done . How do other tracks / sanctioning bodies do their group time trrials?




longtimefan
March 04, 2015 at 06:40:25 PM
Joined: 12/02/2004
Posts: 845
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I am not a big fan of group time trials but I will bet the top four or five in each heat will separated by a couple of tenth of a second. you would have to be real good at judging your speed and knowing what the others are doing to be third or fouth fastest to get the front row and not be fifth and end up in the third row. If you are fastest you get the second row.



oswald
March 04, 2015 at 07:09:38 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1980
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Yup, how do you sandbag without knowing for sure what the other 7 guys in your heat are doing? Are they sandbagging too? If so, how much. Doubt you have anything to wotty about. Drivers are going to time their best rather than risk sandbaging thier way into a 3rd or 4th row starting spot.




Peahead
March 04, 2015 at 07:23:56 PM
Joined: 02/02/2015
Posts: 31
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: tenter on March 04 2015 at 04:45:48 PM

I see Port Royal will be having several races this season using group time trial for the 410's. I don't know how other tracks do this , but Port splits the field, and then times the cars grouped by what heat race they will run. For example , say there are 24 cars in the pits. They will divide them into three heats with 8 cars each . Then they will divide them in half and run time trials with 4 cars in each session . I have no problem with this system. What I don't like is then they invert the top 4 fastest cars in each group for the heat lineups. This will put the fastest car in  each group starting fourth in each heat race. Then they take the top two from each heat into the inversion for the feature. This is where I have a problem. With only eight cars in your time trial group , there is no incentive at all to get the fastest time. Drivers are better off just sandbagging a bit to get a front row spot. Running time trials against a full field would make it almost impossible to sandbag , but against 8 cars it can be done . How do other tracks / sanctioning bodies do their group time trrials?



Knoxville group times their weekly races and I think it's great for the fans-single time trials are as borrowing as watching paint dry. Their 360s and 305s time in groups of six and the 410s time in groups of three. Whether how they line up to has to do with heat race lineups I don't know. The 410s are really fun this way if two or three fast cars time together-they don't hold back anything.



tenter
March 04, 2015 at 07:29:13 PM
Joined: 07/16/2008
Posts: 978
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 What is the reward for being fast time? Nothing that I can figure?????



oswald
March 04, 2015 at 08:30:39 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1980
Reply

Reward for QT is starting no worse than 4th in a heat. Knoxville awards points for time trials so QT helps win a track championship. As for sandbagging, i picked a random night at Knoxville. They invert 8 in the A. QT was 15.406. 8th quick was 15.603. Think anyon

 

e is good enough to shave 2 tenths of a second off thier time trial lap so they can start on the front row?

 

 

Bottom line, if you don't like that format that much, stay home




tenter
March 04, 2015 at 11:59:18 PM
Joined: 07/16/2008
Posts: 978
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There is no way that 8 drivers in a group time that close on a regular night. There is always a car or two , maybe 3 off the pace more than that.



tenter
March 05, 2015 at 12:02:56 AM
Joined: 07/16/2008
Posts: 978
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By the way , I'm not really complaining . I'm just putting an observation out there and it is backed up by more drivers than what people would think. I just don't like going to the races and the fast cars are always penalized.



MSPN
March 05, 2015 at 09:13:39 AM
Joined: 11/23/2004
Posts: 3943
Reply


Yo' tent, that's 1st and 8th in the whole field, you probably caught that by now.  When does it look like things will start happening at Lincoln and the Grove?  Has your weather been as bad as some of the States around you?  Take It Easy....




vande77
March 05, 2015 at 10:43:04 AM
Joined: 01/20/2005
Posts: 2079
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Reply to:
Posted By: oswald on March 04 2015 at 08:30:39 PM

Reward for QT is starting no worse than 4th in a heat. Knoxville awards points for time trials so QT helps win a track championship. As for sandbagging, i picked a random night at Knoxville. They invert 8 in the A. QT was 15.406. 8th quick was 15.603. Think anyon

 

e is good enough to shave 2 tenths of a second off thier time trial lap so they can start on the front row?

 

 

Bottom line, if you don't like that format that much, stay home



I believe this year they are drawing for invert with a chance of 0, 4, 6 or 8.  Puts more incentive to TT fast, worst you could start (if you transfer through your heat) will be 8th, but you could start on the pole by being Quicktime now.

I think this eliminates any need to sandbag, and you get qualifying points toward the season title as well (and we've seen how important qualifying points are in the WoO the past few years).



oswald
March 05, 2015 at 01:47:18 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1980
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Posted By: vande77 on March 05 2015 at 10:43:04 AM

I believe this year they are drawing for invert with a chance of 0, 4, 6 or 8.  Puts more incentive to TT fast, worst you could start (if you transfer through your heat) will be 8th, but you could start on the pole by being Quicktime now.

I think this eliminates any need to sandbag, and you get qualifying points toward the season title as well (and we've seen how important qualifying points are in the WoO the past few years).



Last year they inverted 8 every week. You really think they changed that to eliminate sandbagging? Tell me who "sandbagged" their way to a front row start at knoxville by shaving 2 or 3 tenths of a second off their time trial. 



oswald
March 05, 2015 at 01:48:43 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1980
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Posted By: tenter on March 05 2015 at 12:02:56 AM

By the way , I'm not really complaining . I'm just putting an observation out there and it is backed up by more drivers than what people would think. I just don't like going to the races and the fast cars are always penalized.



So you prefer the fast cars start up front so there is no passing. Wow!




vande77
March 05, 2015 at 02:14:28 PM
Joined: 01/20/2005
Posts: 2079
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Posted By: oswald on March 05 2015 at 01:47:18 PM

Last year they inverted 8 every week. You really think they changed that to eliminate sandbagging? Tell me who "sandbagged" their way to a front row start at knoxville by shaving 2 or 3 tenths of a second off their time trial. 



I don't believe people sandbag (but I do know quite a few people who think that it's possible).    If it was possible, I think you'd see the best cars starting on the front row every week (you don't).

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of the chance of a 0 invert, but it is what it is.  If it were up to me, the invert would be 6 (take 4) in the heats and an invert of 6 in the feature and make them all 25 laps.

But, I get my $$$'s worth when I go to Knoxville every time (maybe not the Outlaw Shows), so I'll watch no matter what the format is.



tenter
March 05, 2015 at 05:46:47 PM
Joined: 07/16/2008
Posts: 978
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Posted By: oswald on March 05 2015 at 01:48:43 PM

So you prefer the fast cars start up front so there is no passing. Wow!



I guess I'm sort of old school in my thinking when I think the fastest cars have earned the right to start up front. Make your car faster if you want to win. Don't be a welfare dependant and hope for handout wins. LOL.

 

MSPN....yes , the weather is bad in central PA. Snowing right now. Port has about 6" on the track yet and I think lincoln and the Grove are as bad or worse. Then the frost is deep too since Feb was the 4th coldest month of all time as recorded at Harrisburg .



tenter
March 05, 2015 at 05:48:38 PM
Joined: 07/16/2008
Posts: 978
Reply

PS. Vande ... Port doesn't line up the features by time trials after the heats. They do a re-draw of the inversion cars . Thats why I'm not liking the system they are using.




tenter
March 05, 2015 at 05:50:10 PM
Joined: 07/16/2008
Posts: 978
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Reply to:
Posted By: MSPN on March 05 2015 at 09:13:39 AM


Yo' tent, that's 1st and 8th in the whole field, you probably caught that by now.  When does it look like things will start happening at Lincoln and the Grove?  Has your weather been as bad as some of the States around you?  Take It Easy....



I knew what he was talking about, but at Port you are only timing against the cars in your heat , and yes , you can sandbag then.



oswald
March 05, 2015 at 07:13:04 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1980
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Reply to:
Posted By: tenter on March 05 2015 at 05:46:47 PM

I guess I'm sort of old school in my thinking when I think the fastest cars have earned the right to start up front. Make your car faster if you want to win. Don't be a welfare dependant and hope for handout wins. LOL.

 

MSPN....yes , the weather is bad in central PA. Snowing right now. Port has about 6" on the track yet and I think lincoln and the Grove are as bad or worse. Then the frost is deep too since Feb was the 4th coldest month of all time as recorded at Harrisburg .



Old school? It was in the 50's when promoters started using inverts to make racing better and draw more fans. Starting the fast cars in front had led to follow the leader events and fan interest was falling off. How old are you if you remember the days when straight up starts with QT pole front row was the standard format?



bmd5229
March 05, 2015 at 08:17:26 PM
Joined: 06/18/2012
Posts: 552
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I have only noticed one thing i do not like about group time trials, is sometimes the faster guys get put with the slower guys and can sometimes really mess up times.  I have seen a few times where a much obviously faster guy caught up to the guy in front of him in no time, and was forced to either back off the throttle or have to switch lines through the turn and cause himself problems.  Other than that, i think it will be interesting, at least Port Royal is trying different things and getting opinions from fans, as well as turning their facility around.  Unfortunately cannot say the same about the Friday night track.




tenter
March 06, 2015 at 12:28:25 PM
Joined: 07/16/2008
Posts: 978
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Posted By: oswald on March 05 2015 at 07:13:04 PM

Old school? It was in the 50's when promoters started using inverts to make racing better and draw more fans. Starting the fast cars in front had led to follow the leader events and fan interest was falling off. How old are you if you remember the days when straight up starts with QT pole front row was the standard format?



I've been to many , many , many races since the 50's that were started heads up by time trials. Your response holds no water.

 



vande77
March 06, 2015 at 01:24:38 PM
Joined: 01/20/2005
Posts: 2079
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Posted By: tenter on March 06 2015 at 12:28:25 PM

I've been to many , many , many races since the 50's that were started heads up by time trials. Your response holds no water.

 



Totally agree, I've been to them in the past year that start heads up by time trials.

The races they nights they invert the field is usually a little bit better racing, but not always (sometimes that quick-time car isn't as fast at the end of the night and some guy that timed in 7th or 8th is the fastest by the end of the night).





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