Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2014/07/jury_selected_for_injured_driv.html

Im sorry but this is absolutely absurd.  You know the risk of strapping into a sprint car from the start.  You sign those pit pass forms at the beginning of the night for a reason.  Do I think the track could do stuff to improve safety around the track? Absolutely but suing for 6 million is ridiculous.  I do feel bad for his injuries but this is too far.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2014/07/jury_selected_for_injured_driv.html

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Love the line from the lawyer "....the track has no duty to drivers coming onto its property to install a fence when the risk is obvious......".  Really, a track has no obligation to make their facility safe for the racers or fans? Lawyers are something else.

Sorry, but I feel that if this were you or a loved one that this happened to, you'd be doing the same thing.  How many years now have cars been flying out over the fences at the Grove, and what has been done to help prevent that - especially in turns one and two where the drop is steep?  Tracks like Eldora and Knoxville have excellent catch fencing to keep the cars in the ballpark, why hasn't the Grove done anything like that?

Cars have left the ball park at Eldora and drivers have walked away - Kevin Swindell / Craig Dollansky come to mind.

More cars have also come off the wall and catch fence at Eldora and bounced back into the racing lane where drivers have taken ambulance or copter rides and missed a big chunk of the season - or worse... Saldana / Dollansky / Tatnell / Shepard / Doty.

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

Was there for both Swindell and Dollansky's rides through the catch fence in turn two.  Both happened with the old fencing that Earl had for years.

So you are saying that these big, high-speed half mile tracks should have no fencing and just let the cars go flying out?

I did not say that - read my post...it is you who said that.

There are unintended consequences when your cars slams to a stop on the ground...the guardrail...and anything else you may hit along the way.

IMO - The biggest danger to drivers at the Grove is the steel bridge...the second biggest danger to drives is the sawed off wood pole that is about waist high the is between the track and the infield dog fence 2/3 of the way down the back stretch.

The biggest danger to fans is the dog fence on the back stretch.

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

not sure how this will turn out, but if history has taught us anything it should be that the "release" isn't worth the paper it's printed on (many others have signed it and won lawsuits).

As far as negligence goes, I'd say the odds are that they will win this case based on the fact that they still haven't made any upgrades and they can show catch fencing and wrecks from other tracks that contain the car within the race facility (and as much as I hate to say it, the NASCAR wreck @ Daytona 2 years ago (where parts hit fans in the stands) will surely be in the back of the jurors minds whether they say it will or not).  IMO, the racetrack is negligent because they have ignored the danger of the hill as opposed to being proactive and thinking "what if?".

Now, on the other hand, John Westbrook (and his team and family) had been to Williams Grove many many times before and knew that there was a safety issue.  No one held a gun to their head and forced them to race there, they could have raced elsewhere that had better safety catch fences, they made that choice.

I would imagine that insurance companies for racetracks and racetrack operators are watching this closely and you'll see some tracks close down that aren't directly involved in the lawsuit (because they won't want to spend the $$$ to upgrade fencing (in the event that John Westbrook wins the case) or do any other safety improvements.

Not to mention, this guy continues to show up to watch races there weekly and also still puts a racecar out there  every week on the same track with the same conditions. It seems a little hypocrit like to be crying foul and claiming how unsafe it is, yet bringing your car to the track weekly. So your safety was compromised, but your driver...well he doesnt matter? What a joke. I get it...he got hurt and his life has been affected greatly by it. And I've talked to him a time or two and he's an angry guy. Do I feel for him? Yea....It sucks. I understand, I'm a military guy who risks injury or death all the time and has been overseas. But you won't find me suing the gvt. if I step on an IED while on patrol and lose a leg. THIS SUIT IS A JOKE! And if he wins...it will be a ripple affect that will help in crushing the sport we love. Prices will go up and it will change everything we know and love about sprint car  racing. This is good for nobody but John Westbrook. And in the end of the day, he's still going to be in that wheel chair unfortunatly...so really does he win?

Knoxville should put up a fence too so no more drivers get hurt or worse.... 

If they didn't have a fence in 1 & 2 and a car went out onto the highway and got hit by a semi, they'd be liable for injuries to the driver, the truck, bystanders, etc., etc..

To me, that is what the entire lawsuit shoudl be about.  Is that area where Westbrooks car landed completely empty (no vehicles, trash cans, people, etc.?  if so, it's probably fairly safe, however it shouldn't be a big drop off (that doesn't help disipate energy, it can create MORE energy as a flipping or rolling vehicle can actually gain speed instead of decrease speed).

While I don't agree that lawsuits are the way to go, my guess is that John Westbrook will win this case, then it will be appealed over and over and over and then be overturned or it will be 5-7 years before he sees a penny.

As far as other tracks, I saw Kenny Jacobs go out of Eldora on exiting turn #2 in 1986 (maybe 1987, can't remember for sure anymore) when he drove the Wiekert 29 and he landed in the creek behind the track.  Luckily he wasn't hurt or worse (although the track officials didn't even notice he was gone for 2-3 laps).

Fencing is designed to protect spectators, but lack of fencing doesn't protect drivers (if the officials aren't watching, a car could flip out of a track (into the darkness) and they could conceivably run the remainder of the race and not realize a car is missing (and in emergency situations, every second matters) and a small injury can become something much larger just due to a lack of immediate attention.

Like I stated before, Insurance companies for racetracks and racetracks are watching this pretty close I'm sure.

Oh you are so wrong!!!!  You sign a release when you buy a pit pass.  That means that on that day you accept the facility for the way it is at that moment.  No and, buts or maybies.  I can tell you on that night, John drove through turns 1&2 numerous times before the feature started.  He had lots of opportunity to decide it wasn't safe.

Track safety upgrades; Yes! whole heartedly agree, they should make safety improvements.  Down that steep hill, yea, a fence might be good.  However, like all catch fences, you run the risk of the fence throwing the car & driver back onto the track and into the path of another car that won't be able to avoid hitting them.  It's 1/2 a dozen, .......

Racing is dangerous.  Accept it.  Race or watch.  John choose to race. (& still does....hypocrite!

On the topic of the track itself at Williams Grove....

That's a prety dangerous joint, mainly due to design issues.   

The opening on the backstretch is brutal.  Near that opening is the support I-beams for the bridge.  The I beams are completely exposed and just a foot off the track.  

The bridge is a neat tradition but its dagerous.  It needs to go.

There are a lot of sharp-angle openings in the walls.  Those have to be changed.

As far as the need for a catch fence...  I agree with the idea that a catch fence isn't always the safest thing.  The Eldora examples of cars being bounced back in to traffic are good examples of the negative side of a fence.   But tumbling down a steep embankment isn't good either.  

Its tough for me to buy the argument that its too expensive to implement changes in track design for the sake of safety.  There is literally millions of dollars of equipment sitting in the pits every night.  But we can't afford to have a safe wall/fence system?  

Ben T

"If you're gonna run the bottom, you might as well get 
a real job."

Thanks for pointing out how "wrong" I am.  Sorry, I forgot I was talking about PA - where someone who is owed money from a sanctioning body and yet continues to race with them cannot be labeled a hypocrite, yet someone who is hurt at a track is a hypocrite for suing.  SMH.

Yes, racing is dangerous. So is driving on the highway, yet we accept that risk too.  However, if you or a loved is hurt in an auto accident due to someone else's negligence, say for instance, poor highway design/lack of safety measures, you'd sue in a heartbeat - don't sit on your high horse and tell me you wouldn't.

You guys love your drivers in PA - deservedly so, yet some of you are throwing this guy under the bus for his exercising his legal rights. They are great until they are hurt at your beloved tracks and that track may have to actually be held accountable for not doing everything they could to make the track safer for the fans or racers.

Williams grove has insurance for this.

Let's just tear down all the fencing.  Afterall, it is so dangerous - what with throwing the cars back onto the track and all.  Better to let them fly into the grandstands, out over the turns onto highways like would happen at Knoxville.

DustyDevil, if you think those "release forms" you sign when you buy a pit pass are worth a nickel in a court of law, then it is you who are so wrong.  They are worthless.

And the very team who has not been paid by a sanctioning body did in fact ram the outside wall on the backstretch on the May outlaw weekend and was thrown back across the track after riding up the guardrail and getting into the catch fence.

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

here is your link - fast forward to 1:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzQyvT-BLdw

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

If the worst case scenario is true (jury finds the track guilty/negligent) and they have to pay him $6M ... the track's insurance company will likely pay that... and probably drop their policy or multiply their premium x 100 if they keep insuring them.  If they do get dropped, a new insurance provider will probably want something fixed in the turns 1 & 2 area before they would consider insuring them... and still charge them a higher rate.  Would this put the track out of business, or would they make the changes, swallow the added cost, and move on??  Best case scenario I would think for the track and drivers (just not the plaintiff) would be to win the suit, but then go ahead and level out the 'drop-off' zone outside the track, remove any obstacles drivers could hit, etc.  Thoughts from BRR and other locals??

The bottom line here is that this suit is WRONG!!!!   Everyone whom enters the pits signs the release!!!  All drivers know the risks envolved when they strap in!!!  All 410 drivers know( if they don't, there are blind) that every time they strap in there is a chance they could be killed!!!

  Westbrook is looking to get rich!!!  This suit will do nothing for the sport, except drive price up!!!

  If things are so unsafe at Williams Grove why does he continue to field a team and put another drive in harms way!!!!

  Westbrook is a BUM!!!!!  there is no place in motorsports for a guy like him!!!

Grove could shorten the track by moving 1-2 and drop the track to a 4 / 10 (similar length as that half mile at Eldora) ...widen the racing surface...delete the bridge / tunnel and put the pits outside of 1-2 with a 20 foot catch fence so the crews can watch the cars bounce around like pinballs when they wreck.

----------------------OR---------------------------

Humpy Wheeler hooks up Todd Fisher with a bulldozer and a small business loan to improve the grand stands / catch fence / sound system / lighting and fanzone Susky could be ready to run Fridays in 2015!

ok...tune in for good racing at Lincoln this Thursday...and snoring on Friday / Saturday

Summer Naturals...Some are Fakes

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

this is flat out bs seen many get hurt or killed in my 35 yrs involded in racing never seen any of this till doug wolfgang won now its what you see in alot of serious injury.  since doug won i have no respect for him anymore had some of my personal friends get hurt and killed none of them sued the track and i respect the hell out of them since they have told me they know the risk when they get in. one thing is the racing family takes care of there own always has the sue happy world we live in today is a joke thats why the phonebook is so thick to many lawerys.  thats why i support the brad doty classic every year

I am just a fan, but most times I think I have my head on straight.  In regards to this Bozo still running a car at the same track he got hurt?  That right there should disqualify the suit. It was said in a previous post something about still running there and still sueing the joint.  That is so wrong on so many levels.    Another point, I think the release you sign, as others have stated, is useless, but if there is a lawsuit, it should not supply damages, it should only pay for any costs at the hospital and any rehab.  Otherwise, why even have insurance?   The rest comes out of the drivers own pocket because YOU ALL KNOW THE RISKS.....Maybe this made sense, maybe it didn't.  Most people should understand what I am trying to say.