Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Been a while since I've read a thread top to bottom on this board, but this one has my attention. Within my click of racing buds, we've been talking about this very issue and we all agree that the end is drawing near for WRG. I agree with the statement that they are demanding too much for their product. I admire what Jackson, MN did this year by offering a non-sanctioned outlaw show that paid $12k to win. I think you would see more tracks do that if they didn't have to pay the exorbitant fees that WRG charges.

Obviously the downside to the teams falling off the WoO tour is the year end point fund. The upside is they cut their costs of traveling. Great debate and I would faithfully support any track that decided to schedule races as Jackson, MN did.

The Jackson race is a classic example of whats wrong with WRG.

The teams had the night off, and were in the vicinity, but yet, no one showed. Im positive it wasnt because they didnt ask.

But yet, on the other hand, when there is a non sanctioned race in Fargo. 3 or 4 teams are either allowed to go, or chose to go and forego the points.

Located in PA, my friends and I have often wondered why guys continue to "earn a living" racing sprint cars in Central PA. To do so, you should be on the road. The purses in Central PA sux and will continue to as long as teams keep rolling in the gate. The cost of the Goodyears has really hurt a lot of teams and not just the cost of the tires, but the fact that the opportunities to race your way into the handicapping for the A and the ability to move up thru the field in the A went ( and for the car to ultimately earn more money) went away with the Goodyear. (yes there have been exceptions where guys have made great strides in the A-but not consistently). Race fans want to see their favorite driver start further back than the front few rows and RACE their way to the front. The racing (with handicapping & goodyear) is BORING. And you are only racing to win between $3,600 - $3,000. That's finishing 1st!!!! The drop off from 2nd on back is horrible and earning 500-400 or LESS for 10th!!! No wonder teams here are cutting back to 1 night a week, or only racing time trial shows. If you do not finish 1,2 and sometimes 3rd - you made ZERO! Your costs to get to the track and put the car on the track out-weigh the payoff. These tracks can all afford to do better back thru the payout - but the teams keep showing up to race for peanuts and loose money so they don't.

If WoO teams are going to go off the schedule and start running "local" shows I HOPE they stay AWAY from Central PA. These teams cannot afford to increase their budgets and to have to run against some of these big funded teams will just kill the local racing. The car owners are all at their wits end already - no one can find great sponsorship money locally anymore, and just won't be able to justify what they are spending to race against huge corporate teams and especially if they are doing it for a payout that is going to cost them way more than what they earn.

The local tracks need to spend more time and effort and sometimes money to keep their local team owners happy and coming back thru the gate. We got sold out by the tracks when they started to dictate local rules based on WoO rules. They've lined their pockets and the teams and the quality of the sport are suffering.

A summer series ran for about a dozen weeks on Wed nights on Speed is what I have been wishing for a very long time. You can run it at Eldora (Hello Tony) and run it winged and traditional sprints and it could be a big success if the right guys commit to it. Drivers like Steve, Sammy and maybe legends like Haud and Blaney also would be a nice start.

You would have to restrict it to some degree much like the Chili Bowl is now doing (but not enough) and try to have about 36 cars in each class and make this THE SERIES in the country. How many sprint and just plain racefans are sitting around on Wed's doing nothing, most of the country, that's how many. I am confident it would draw sponsors if it had the right kind of driver support and Steve and Sammy would be a nice place to start. Smarter minds than mine and the right marketing people could put this together without that much effort and NOW is the time to do this while things are in their current state in the sport, come on Tony, make it happen. Heck you could almost do it with Late Models and winged sprints as well or instead, then you might have some more Cup guys involved and with them comes $$$$$$$$.

Whatcha think?????

I totally agree......This WRG outfit has ripped off people and refuse to change so to heck with them. They made their bed!

There is something at a Lucas or WoO late model race for a guy that likes the mechanical side of racing and not just what the guy's name is behind the wheel. The racing is better too. There are all kinds of engines..Fords (the ones in victory lane usually) Mopars and yes even chevs, everything from 380 to 450 ci, tires and chassis that are truly different not just the same thing made in China. They continue to get faster too. If they weren't so big and ugly there wouldn't even need to be all these spec sprint car divisions anymore.

Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3 
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?

The WOO is struggling like everybody else in this economy like wise the tracks! Take this group out of the picture and most of you guys will be running weekly for $1500 a win. There may be some big shows but not to the level you have now. Instead of fighting the group maybe find a way to support and they will survive this down turn. We as a country are a good three years away from any gleam. They have NO issue if you race tracks that support them so look and understand without supporting them they go

This reminds me of two great quotes from two great men...

The late great Johnny Johnson, promoter and racer, "Why would I pay you guys more money? I get more than enough of you idiots for only $400 to win."

Fred Rahmer, "Once a promoter knows you will race for less, they got you!"

Fred was talking about why he refused to race 360 races, and Johnny was in reference to when the 360 class was asking for more money at 34 Raceway. If you notice, it appears that there are allot more late model guys picky about where they run and for what they run for. JMO

The 50 plus freebies for VIP's that WRG has doesn't help tracks any at all. Hell there is a series around Oklahoma that has a list of 28 people to be let in free - and they all show up and most do nothing.

You guys are right, this is a very good thread/topic.

David Smith Jr.
www.oklahomatidbits.com

Go to an AMA Grand National event - it has been done and I believe can be.

That's because the Williams Grove's no compete clause (tracks within 50 miles of the Grove). Can't blame WRG totally for that one.

El Wacko---WOO do not have 20 cars, they depend on local

car count to make a good field. No WOO drivers are not all a bunch of junk,,Most people would feel cheated in grandstands with a 20 car field. , The drivers do noi make any money if they do not race. A 50 race schedual means ech driver will make 25% less in the year.

I think Meyers, Kinser and Parsons still own the rights to NST, just sayin'

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A healthy diet of dirt in my nachos and beer.

If I only had the money.... :-)

I do have the illustrator file of the logo, though.. that's a start!

Thanks to all for not going in the usual direction on this forum. Interesting posts.

If I'm not mistaken... the car count at a big late model race is dramatically different than a WoO sprint race. There are a handful of WoO races with a nice count... but an awful lot of short fields and several of cars were 360s showing up for a check.

200+ cars at the World 100, right? Paying the purse through the pit gate, friends. You could pay a nice purse if you had 100+ sprints with 5 people average per car buying pit passes. Instead you have 20 cars at some events. Either the purse suffers or the ticket price and the consumer suffer (or the promoter with a half-full grandstand). One or the other... you can't have your cake & eat it too, after all.

Glad to see someone else applauds the PBR model. Thanks, HC. I've plead that case for years online. Don't reinvent the wheel... we can see what works just fine.

Ted Johnson was a necessary evil IMHO to the travelers. They didn't love him... they loved the $$$ he enabled them to run for. He bought their loyalty by giving guys a chance to make a living. Ted made some men wealthy with his business model.

A post above mentioned the reliance of the WoO upon local cars to fill the field. Agreed. Problem with that philosophy is that 410s aren't what they used to be. (oh darn... another 360 vs. 410 argument...) The NHRA didn't fold when they restricted motor sizes in some divisions. (prostock, for example). When they went 1000 ft... they didn't fold. Did you remember that Cup cars ran HEMIs? Multiple downsizing of those motors and they're stronger than ever.

Spec head 360s are the answer. Sorry. It's true. 1/2 second time difference won't matter AT ALL. You'll still have the same people spending more money & winning more races. What you'll gain are 50-75 car fields nightly and tighter racing. Unhook the cars a TON and you'll have outrageous racing. Rock hard tires... flat wings run at a limited angle... smaller wings... no nose wing... lots of crazy ideas out there to unhook the cars.

These motors aren't cheap but at least a local guy can run his 10 year old Wesmar ASCS motor and do just fine. It's been done before. They didn't pay $40k for that bullet last winter... they paid $8-10k for it.

Unhooked spec head 360s, 75 cars/night. If I had the money... this wouldn't be talk... it would be fact. All those tracks not good enough for the WoO... we'd be there.

The economics of racing... I can't go see a WoO race at the Devil's Bowl or Lawton or OKC or Tulsa or Big H or North TX Motor Speedway or Memphis Motorsports Park or Battlegrounds or even TMS... a track built exclusively for the WoO. I've enjoyed races at each of these sites. No WoO race... the track goes away.

You're going to tell me if each of those former tracks had 2-3 WoO races with a good crowd they wouldn't still be around? Economics... racing doesn't make sense and probably never will.

Will always disagree with a restricted360. If anything, make it a lower compression spec head 410(427, 440, etc?). Cubic inches don't cost money, the tricks to get more hp out of them do.

I could care less about lap times, but the only reason that 1/2 second difference isn't greater (and it is on heavy tracks where it's easier to put the power down) is because it's harder to drive a car with more power fast. A 360 runs at 90% of the speed a 410 does...behind the wheel of a race car, there is a big difference between running 90% laps, and running 100% laps. I won a local SCCA championship running a GTI and a year later got beat running an M3. It was a hell of a lot easier to get 100% out of the slower car then it was out of the faster car. The margin for error is smaller, the ability for the truly special talents to separate themselves is greater. Some guys that I raced even with in a 200hp car (that were definitely better/more experienced), were the same guys that kicked my ass in the 350hp cars. They could get that extra 150hp out of the car, I couldn't, they beat me as a result.

The racing is almost always better when the cars are slower, it takes a bigger gap in talent to separate speed then, but I don't always mind watching an ass kicking. It's usually a result of getting to see a brilliant drive by a team and driver that you won't forget. Frankly, if ALL your looking for is close racing, give them all 25hp Briggs and Stratton's. They'll be 5 wide non stop banging wheels, it'll be a closer race, cheap too. Racing and cheap has been an oxymoron for 100 years, and they always will be, I think people, pretty much everyone, has been attacking this from the wrong end for awhile. The expense of racing has only risen exponentially with EVERYTHING on the planet, everything EXCEPT the purse these guys race for. If you got paid what you made in 1990, you'd be living in the streets and pretty bitter about it....that's basically what were asking people to race for now. Think about it. I think money could be better spent going into promoting and purses, as opposed to another rule and the expense of enforcing them...

First and foremost, finally a thread that has started and continued without turning off subject, that is very enjoyable to read and follow. Congrats to all that have participated. Reminds me of the old days of this board.

I think the PBR example is a perfect model. Linbob, just because the WOO does not have 20 cars following it does not mean this model would not work. It would actually give more regional drivers a shot at making more money. As stated above it would be more of a invitational type of event. Each person invited would be guaranteed a certain amount. Honestly, there would only be about 10 - 12 cars from the WoO circuit that would make my invitation list. I would then proceed to invite another 20-22 cars from all across the nation. There are plenty of PA region cars, Ohio region cars, Midwest/Knoxville region cars, Northwest region cars, West Coast region cars, and South/Southwest region cars to chose from that could afford to travel to these invitational events.

The nuts and bolts of making a model like this work is to much to go into in a post like this but I believe it is a very viable model.

Just my 2cents.

Like, as the bulk. and yes too much to go into.

12-15 cars traveling is about the limit. As from what I understand you are saying. Tow money normally goes to the series top 10. Getting those cars in who want to race with WoO is the hard part. Knoxville, Husets, Cali and Penn, no problem; Good and willing locals. (some others too)

Inviting cars or 'bribing' them for show money could be a way. The term Outlaws was based on guys coming in and taking the local weekly purse money. NOW how about the term, "A Mercenary Driver"?

As a bad example look at pro wrestling.

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A healthy diet of dirt in my nachos and beer.