Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

What is going on with ASCS heads, There has been a suddon surge of power with some teams. Once you pick a cam and feuling a big jump in HP must be in heads. Are there any motor guys that know for sure what is going on. How did $2000 ASCS heads ready to run become $5000 heads.

Wicked Rocker Ratio's, CNC porting, Angle milling, just for starters.. I wonder how many heads out there are actually 23 degrees. Not many I bet. And these killer ASCS engines are no more durable than some of todays 410's because of the high stress on valve train.. If guys think they are gonna get 20-25 shows before a freshing, they are in for rude awakening.. It all depends on what package you want. The Rule should never have allowed any altering to the heads! I started looking into things for next year and it always seems like I am sacraficing power for durabilty due to limited budget. It is my choice and I live with it, Just like guys who get the Killer version have to live with their choice to freshen way sooner!!

Have great day!

FWIW I've heard of some that approach $8000 that are good for an additional 40+HP. I think the engine builders will give their customers whatever they want, if thy're willing to pay the price. The problem being, now that Pandora's box is open, where do we go from here?.......JMO, the head rule should have stayed "untouched"....but it is what it is. You can't fault the great 360 racing at the upper levels though.......speaking of fuel checking ????

1HD, the engine that Shane Stewart won this years 360 Nationals had 22 nights on it, he ran it two more nights before dropping it off last week. Paul, Shane's car owner just sold one of their other 360's to a guy that had 23 nights on it. We are freshening it before it goes to new owner. Last I checked Shane was a front runner and stands on the gas so it's not like it was 22 shows with some guy that's a backmarker which doesn't put as much stress on it.

Kelly,

And how about another one of your loyal customers, Doug Howells and his grandson Lee Grosz and the #4J car. They won one of the preliminary nights of the 360 Nationals this year with an engine that is how old? They have run the same cylinder heads at least the last (6) years in the Midwest region...CZ

There is not 40hp in a set of heads. I'm sure that some one could hog the heads out and shot blast them, but they wouldn't past tech.

We had a gas on customer race his engine 28 races last year and only changed valve spring at 15 races. That engine made within 10 hp after 28 races as it did new. That was evan after the engine ingested a 1/4-20 nut! These things are actually very durable.

Good parts are an investment. They pay great dividends later.

I don't think the big names are cheating. straight away speeds are directly related to corner speeds. A balls out driver who hangs it out through the corner will always make the engine look good!

Kelly/Chuck,

You make some interesting points about Shane's and Lee's motor programs, but don't try to convince us that the ASCS has done an effective job of cost containment.

Racing isn't cheap, it never will be, but when a new ASCS motor is north of $30,000.00 (now approaching $40k), the cost to compete will continue to limit growth!

Stop asking us to raise the "debt ceiling"!

wy not require the Old ASCS gasket that restricts intake

So Lee and Doug whom I have great respect for and try to talk to almost any chance when I can must have been lying to me last year when they told me they had a engine problem and were waiting to get the motor back? Look I am not gonna bash any builders or anything like that because any motor can and will fail at any given point.. And like I also said, I am not in the dark on what is going on. More power to anyone wanting to buy top of the line! But explain one thing, why was any head alteration at all accepted at all by ASCS years back??? Wesmar, Parker, Ott, Ostrich, and many more build great running motors and are very well respected.. But you can do alot of different stuff upstairs on one of these things and everyone knows it!

Have great day!

A free-ed up race car, low wing angle and a driver with a passion to win.

To give you an idea, on an open cubic inch dirt modified with the same heads, it takes over 408 cid to make 30 more hp than an ASCS 360. You can only suck so much air through a staw!

Yes 1HD, the problem was that we rebuilt their engine and changed cams because Lee asked if we could try something different so we did. Just like Shane's new engine he didn't like it after a few races, so they brought it back in and we went back to what we knew worked.

Chuck, yes Doug said when Lee won his preliminary race at K-ville he thought that was 18 or 19th night on it. Yes Doug brought that same engine to us about 7-8 years ago when his engine builder passes away.

No disrespect, But I don't see any correlation here of a very good Engine Builder and a ASCS official patting each other on the back managing and saying nothing about the original question..

Have great day!

Jeremy is so right when he said
"A free-ed up race car, low wing angle and a driver with a passion to win."

Here is my famous quote
There is more power to be gained in the chassis then in the engine.

My Signature

1HD, go back and read Chuck's post slowly. Did you catch the part when he asked me how many nights Lee had on his engine when he won his preliminary feature? All I did was simply answer his question.

Kelly, I understand that, and you are a heck of a engine builder! But I don't see you willing to answer the original question nor would I expect you to as it would be insane for any major builder to share their secrets on a open forum. I just originally came on to put my input as to some of the reasons the costs are getting out of control with the ASCS cylinder heads. As a team owner I also have to consider things such as cost and durability when we put our racing budget for a season together. And I think anyone can agree that the more you pump up any motor for that matter you start to lose durability.

Steve

Have great day!

1HD,

The point I was trying to make is that everybody is saying that you need the newest, greatest ASCS heads with all the fancy "trick" high dollar options to be competitive, and the #4J car won against some of these newest, greatest ASCS cylinder heads at Knoxville with a set of ASCS heads that are at least (7) years old or older.

Kelly said,

"...the problem was that we rebuilt their engine and changed cams because Lee asked if we could try something different so we did..."

Changed cams, not cylinder heads.

"...Just like Shane's new engine he didn't like it after a few races, so they brought it back in and we went back to what we knew worked..."

Kelly, did you change cylinder heads?

A few weeks ago, we spent a few hours at Al Parker's shop in Newton on our way to Knoxville for a weekly Saturday night show. I talked to Al about the same concerns that were mentioned at the start of this thread and more. He said everybody immediately looks to the ASCS cylinder heads and they say so and so must be running cheater heads. He pointed to a short block that was in the process of being assembled and said that R&D in that area is where you can legally gain horsepower.

I visited with a local racer who has won numerous features at Knoxville in the (360) division over the past few years. His new engine seemed to be non competitive until he did a little research and found out he needed to run a much different gear than his other (360) engines and he couldn't believe how much quicker he became with simply getting the gear dialed in.

I also visited with another local racer who competes weekly at Knoxville. They took their (360) engine to a different shop and had the guy run it on his dyno and with just a few adjustments to their fuel mixture they gained (15) horsepower.

What I'm trying to say is maybe some of the reason some of these race teams are consistantly faster week in and week out is the result of something other than cylinder heads.

Even though I am the ASCS Midwest Regional Director, I ain't afraid to give my opinion.

There are over (1200) race teams running a (360) division somewhere in the US utilizing ASCS rules or a variance of them. How do we try to level the playing field without bankrupting them with any major engine rule change, we need to unhook the race cars. This is the most cost effective way to try to somewhat level the playing field.

That's my opinion, for what it's worth...CZ

Thanks for sharing that Chuck! I know you did not have to, and unhooking the cars is a logical answer to taking some big money out of the picture.

Have great day!