Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Everybody thinks that every engine builder is getting rich building engines. I don't know of any sprint car engine builder that got rich from building engines.

I know how can you not make money on selling a 360 for $38,500 and a 410 for $48,500? Until you have had to build one and account for every piece and every hour you won't understand. And a $38,500 360 is just a run of the mill 360. If you want something better it will cost more. I hate to say it but I just built a new 360 and spent more then $38,500 on parts not including labor.

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400 steel blocks is exactly what was used not all that many years ago before motors got so out of hand.You got an old 400 out of a truck or caprice and built it up,and made your sprint car fly.

With the popularity of the 360 class,if you are used motor shopping,you can go 410 racing for about the same $ as 360 racing.Check out hoseheads classifieds,you can buy freshened 410's for about the same bucks as a freshened 360.The 360 class engine has gotten away from what was intended to be affordable racing.I have recently seen some wet sumped, home built, factory block 360's run with the hi-dollar motors on some tracks though,and you dont see that in the 410 class.

WRONG!!!

I'm just a fan, but even can tell you it wasn't the engine builders that drove up the costs.

IT WAS/IS THE PROMOTERS. Thats who writes the freakin rules! common sense dude. If you dont like it go bitch at promoters. The engine builders just build what the drivers want. It was the promoters who started catering to aluminum this - titanium that. And they knew full well what the hell that would cause.

It is the sole job of the engine builder to build what the customer wants. It doesn;t even make a shit in a field if it is illegal or not. They build what the customer wants. The only time an engine builder SHOULD be bound to follow certain rules - is when whether through sponsorship or something of that nature - they are affiliated with a certain series. Like when Wesmar did the Wesmar Challenge with ASCS. That may as well have been sponsorship - so I kind of doubt they were building or doing illegal things to the motors at those times. It would have damaged the credibility of ASCS if they had. I bet Wesmar still doesn't do it. But thats just my personal opinion.....

I am a huge fan of ASCS - and of Wesmar as well - thats what many/most of the sprints in this area run. With much success too. sprintfan0 you can highlight the fact they have no top WoO teams running their motors - but for the last few years I have been paying attention - they have had MANY top 360 teams runnin their stuff. And with a lot of success too. . And that shouldn't matter whether they build more 360's or 410's. or at least not to the extent you paint it. He is someone who would know. I'm sure he talks with most all of the other engine builders as well. It's something he is well-versed in I am sure. They are respected engine builders for a reason

Wesmar - and other engine builders - just do what their customers want. Ultimately it is the promoters and their rulebooks who are to blame for where the prices have went. Drivers who have the dough want to spend it - engine builders are a business. They do what the customer wants. It is the promoters who are supposed to keep things largely in check with their rulebooks.

BTW - this is all thoughts and stuff I have come to think reading much stuff on here and talking with a few. I don't race - and if someone who does race disagreed with me on any of this - I would be the first to take their word over mine. But I do strongly believe most of the blame should go to the promoters and their rulebooks.

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

Kelly, first off thanks for posting. You are one of the few people who comes here and gives us what you guys are doing. Sorry about the knuckleheads who think it is the engine builders problem driving up material costs!

Question on the 360's. The cost is up dramatically in the past 5 years. I have heard a couple of reasons but wanted to get your thoughts. I have heard that more guys are picking up old Nascar cranks and other parts and putting them in their motors. Obviously the power and speeds are way up. If this truly is happening, can you still take a 6-8 year old ASCS legal motor and compete with the National guys horsepowerwise? If you can, are the heads and 23 degree angle enough to keep the series competitive, or is it only a matter of time before ASCS is haves and have nots as far as you must have a 1-2 year old motor to compete. Thanks.

kelly your the shiz. you guys work at staying at the cutting egde of technology. customers money can only go so far. dont mess with a drag racer. in case anyone forgot we do it twice a lap on sometimes rough terain. talk about making a motor " grunt " whats the new hot head combo anyway?

leave a good name and a legacy behind. then die ;) and 
then cum back to life! now thats living baby! do a 
good dead and help your neighbor. dream as if you live 
forever and live as if you'll die today. always 
remember where you came from. ;)

Thats why I like 1/4 mi's and 3/8's It isnt a HP show like at Knox and WG.

More weight, more regulation, more similarity in the 
cars.... that will ensure plenty of thrills for years 
to come.  Only the most average talent behind the 
wheel will be needed with such awesome equipment on 
the track!
minthess 8.28.14

LMFAO!! What a dickhead

OKCfan you are correct on the costs being driven up. I made a comment on here a while back on the very same question. Back in the late 90's early 2000's we were building engines for Lasoski (Roth 83) and Johnny Herrera (Cormack 20) and it even went back further before that when we did Hillenburgs stuff. My dad, myself, Danny, and Johnny were standing in an isle at the PRI show in Indy and Danny asked if we had seen a particular engine part some vendor was displaying, anyways as we were talking Danny said point blank to my dad "if you see anything trick or if you even think we might need it in our engines just do it, my car owner doesn't care what it costs!!" Johnny said the same thing just do it, no questions asked. I am almost pretty sure it still happens today. So are engine builders really to blame for the rising costs? I personally don't think so, but yes we do contribute to it to an extent in the form of R&D and not knowing if or how it will work.

P.S. ASCS nixed the idea of going to aluminum blocks, know it all

Yes more and more guys are buying up Nascar cranks for their 360's. I can always tell when someone has one of those cranks because they always call up an order a gear drive (Shaver-Wesmar, you know our partner in crime) with a big block crank gear, which is common in the Cup ranks.

To answer your question, horsepower wise you would be down a little bit on power from newer stuff. How much, maybe 10-15. But when the summer comes and the track slicks off you'd be right in the ball park!!

Hope this helps

No Shaver is not our partner.

If you are so interested in knowing who is getting $50,000 why don't you pick up the phone and dial? You do know how a phone works, right?

Why do you care who's paid $48,000 for one of our engines? Are you getting a commission?

Were more in the 410 ballpark than you are.

amen brotha. i'm in that boat. the fans can see some closer racing too in most cases. i do love knoxville loews and eldora the. do i have my politacal answers down yet? short it is!

leave a good name and a legacy behind. then die ;) and 
then cum back to life! now thats living baby! do a 
good dead and help your neighbor. dream as if you live 
forever and live as if you'll die today. always 
remember where you came from. ;)

I think someone has a bone to pick with Wesmar... Maybe you've been continuously beat by them? Maybe you have affiliations with another motor builder?

It's all capitalism. As long as racers have money (and some that don't) they'll spend it to get fast. Sadly enough, if some aren't spending money then they're are cheating because they can't afford to "stay up" with the legal guys, but that's another thread.

I think the big block idea is a bad idea. Sprints are almost going to fast for what they are roll cage wise. These cars can handle a lot more hp because they are hooked up so tight with the wings and tires. Put smaller wings on them and make the tire smaller, put the driver back into it and take the high dollar horses and lightweight bolt kits that cost $3000 to save 3 lbs out of it.

hehe. he said meathead LMAO!

so whats the trick shiz now kelly? or do i have to send a check?

leave a good name and a legacy behind. then die ;) and 
then cum back to life! now thats living baby! do a 
good dead and help your neighbor. dream as if you live 
forever and live as if you'll die today. always 
remember where you came from. ;)

i agree on the big blocks, and i have a cage that will stand up a little better. not all need is the money part. limited the heads and call it done. or the header rule like wilmot had years back.

leave a good name and a legacy behind. then die ;) and 
then cum back to life! now thats living baby! do a 
good dead and help your neighbor. dream as if you live 
forever and live as if you'll die today. always 
remember where you came from. ;)

I don't know for sure but it would it seem to me a big block would weigh more so in essence, handle more sluggish or "wallow like a pig". More sprung weight.

Probably have to use stiffer bars and shock package.

Maybe an experienced chassis setup guy could chime in on this???

"Just the facts ma'am", Sgt. Joe Friday, Detective, 
LAPD

About 10-15 years ago we thought about building a 396 big block bored out to be a 408, but the WoO quickly made a rule saying no bb heads.

I'd have to re-fresh my memory but I think the WoO has a bore size rule

ur right . the mojority of the weight would be static. you could lower the motor a touch. tilt it to make it tranfer better to make up for it. there is no substitute for horsepower tho. i'll run and have run a heavier car, and will run a heavier safer car. the differance were talking is nothing in comparrison to the advantage horsepower will give you. even in the slick. thats why they call them " quick change gears "

leave a good name and a legacy behind. then die ;) and 
then cum back to life! now thats living baby! do a 
good dead and help your neighbor. dream as if you live 
forever and live as if you'll die today. always 
remember where you came from. ;)

You said a mouthful cheese21.....first I'm waiting for sprintfan0 to announce his $25000 competitive 900hp 410[since he believes engine builders are ripping off racers] .Second your right about racers..I run non wing,a friend of mine spent $1100 for a WOO qualifying bladder..saved about 8lbs...leaked after 2 races..money well spent? I think not....and lastly if [like you said] they limited wing size and tire width..the driver would be more important and high hp grenade motors would go away....one last thing cheese21-be careful-if you continue to use logic ,common sense,and knowledge in your post ...you may not fit in

and what would the point be to that? maybe just RD? or so the "Big Block Forever" fans could finally see a pushtruck overheat?

I like it just the way it is , I run a old school -12 410, freshened and practically new, on the local level at a 3/8 or smaller track, we do just fine !, and spent 10k less than a new 360. 100 less lbs and 100 more hp too , im sure thats not the same everywhere, but, let the 1/2 mile and WoO boys spend it , heck, it feeds me ideas. cant beat em, then just watch em?