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Topic: Knoxville Nats question, WARNING may be upsetting!
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Page 2 of 2 of 31 replies
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August 08, 2008 at
03:24:22 PM
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12/14/2004
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645
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The points system for the Nats is what truly makes this event unique. Every lap here counts for something. I hope they never change or alter the format. The biggest sprint car race in the world should be the most difficult one to win.
Knoxville Natioanls attendee since '95
Favorite Tracks...River Cities, Knoxville, Cedar Lake
Favorite Drivers...S.Kinser, T.Kaeding, K.Madsen, S.Smith
Proud Canadian
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August 08, 2008 at
04:51:33 PM
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02/25/2007
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Reply to:
Posted By: Jamie Klootwyk on August 08 2008 at 09:55:19 AM
The Nationals are the best format in sprint car racing anywhere. Can anyone think of another race in the year where you want to be there for time trials? Nope, but these ones you don't want to miss.
To answer the main question, the bottom line is qualifications have to be worth so much because of the completely inverted heats because as someone mentioned, what would stop the top teams from sandbagging qualifying...? The system works. There has never been a fluke winner of the Nationals and never will be so long as they keep the system as is.
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Best format? Trophy Cup.
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August 08, 2008 at
07:39:00 PM
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2512
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Reply to:
Posted By: Jamie Klootwyk on August 08 2008 at 10:50:09 AM
Sure you can.... you can time like total dog$hit like Wayne Johnson did and then go win the heat and feature and lock yourself into the A-Main.
I think it's safe to say, had Wayne timed better and started in the back of his heat instead of the front he likely wouldn't have won it and then would have started further back in his feature and likely wouldn't have won that either.
I'm not saying he wasn't fast or wouldn't have still finished up front....hell, he may have still won both; but it's more likely he would have finished 2nd, 3rd, or 4th in one or both races. It all balances out in the end.
By the way, Billy Alley qualifed late last night and is locked into Saturday's A, and Bronson Maeshon qualified very very late Wednesday and laid down 3rd fast time.
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Wayne timed 22nd out of 54, not great but not total dogshit either. He was perfect the rest of the night, winning his heat from 6th and then winning the feature. That only put him 8th after night 1 and out of the scramble(14th) after night 2. I guess the system works out OK but I'd still like to see a little less emphasis on TT's. A 2 lap TT session earns you as many points as a 25 lap feature, just doesn't seem right. You would think passing 5 cars and winning a heat and then winning the feature would put you in the scramble.
A
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August 08, 2008 at
10:41:56 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: Hawg Wild on August 08 2008 at 03:37:24 AM
I am rather new to sprints and the 410 Nats but I have a question about how the scoring is done. I understand the format but question why so much weight is placed on the qualifing lap. As I understand it sprint car racing is about being able to pass to win the race. In the current format your "qualifing lap" carrries as much weight as a feature win. That just seems weird to me and some of the point totals from this years race echo what I mean. First take W. Johnson, he wins his heat (100 pts) and the A feature (200 pts) but because a not as fast "qualifing lap" is starting 14th on Sat. Another example would be say Gary Wright after his qualifing lap he was already 62 points in the hole. He actually could have one his heat and the A feature and not even been locked into Saturdays A with a total of 438. That would be a travesty and not very indicitve of how fast he was. Do not mean to ruffle any feathers and it is still the best 410 show on earth but I just thought I would express my opinion and get yours.
Thanks
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After reading these responses I realize that I couldnt see the forest for the treams. I was spending too much time focusing on certain drivers I am familiar with I did not see the bigger picture. Admitidly I am not a big fan of time trials but I see how the system does provide a fair chance for "the cream to come to the top". I see that with a slower TT you have a better start in the heats and in turn a better chance at higher points and than again a better start in the feature. Where you would once again have a better opportunity to earn higher points. Thanks for all the feedback and enjoy the rest of the weekend.
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August 08, 2008 at
11:49:59 PM
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"The only major change was the addition of the scrambles in the late 1990s, because they were trying to find a way to augment the Friday non-qualifiers show."
Wasn't the underlying reason they added the scrambles was the fact the high point cars who were picked to race the Mystery Feature and the Race of States and turned 1 or 2 laps if they even showed at all, forced them to have to race on Friday nights? Personally some of the best races I had seen over the years was the Mystery and Race of States features. I always thought that maybe if they added a rule like, you get your Saturday night starting spot only if you competitively race on Friday night may have solved the problem. I know this is a little off topic to the original question posed, but the way qualifying is done at Knoxville is with out a doubt the fairest way possible in my opinion. Like it has been earlier said, it makes the first lap turned just as important as the last.
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August 09, 2008 at
12:19:59 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: DaveyR on August 08 2008 at 11:49:59 PM
"The only major change was the addition of the scrambles in the late 1990s, because they were trying to find a way to augment the Friday non-qualifiers show."
Wasn't the underlying reason they added the scrambles was the fact the high point cars who were picked to race the Mystery Feature and the Race of States and turned 1 or 2 laps if they even showed at all, forced them to have to race on Friday nights? Personally some of the best races I had seen over the years was the Mystery and Race of States features. I always thought that maybe if they added a rule like, you get your Saturday night starting spot only if you competitively race on Friday night may have solved the problem. I know this is a little off topic to the original question posed, but the way qualifying is done at Knoxville is with out a doubt the fairest way possible in my opinion. Like it has been earlier said, it makes the first lap turned just as important as the last.
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Who would decide if you "raced competitively"? If you shell a motor in hot laps do you lose your spot?
What would stop a team from leaving a fitting loose as to cause a minor oil leak, pull in and say the lost oil pressure.
How do you convince a team to risk their equipment the night before the biggest race of the year? You have to give them something to GAIN i.e.; a BETTER starting spot. The threat of losing you spot Sat. night doesn't work, because that chance is there EVEN if they do run and hurt the equipment.
The old Friday features were nice because it gave some of the smaller guys a chance to make a few extra bucks. But unless you are gonna pay 20k+ to win them now, you had better come up with another way to convince everyone they need to race on Friday. And guess what, the opportunity to move up a row two on Saturday seems to get them to the track on Friday.
Of course, I could be talking out my a$$.
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August 09, 2008 at
12:31:41 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: A time and a place on August 08 2008 at 08:34:07 AM
My problem is that from driver #1 to Driver #58, the track changes so much in qualifying. And there is not much a driver can do...the track just slows down. So you are not competing on the same even playing field. It comes down to your draw...which is suppose determine who is better....how again?
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on wens donny schatz whent out 14th i think and was fast time. bronson maeschen was 3rd fast and whent out around 43or48 i think. it is the nationals. the format makes it what it is. you are not going to see just who qualified fast or who just raced fast. you are going to see who did it all. granted, some luck has to come into play too, be it in the pill draw or on the track racing.
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August 09, 2008 at
01:03:54 AM
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If the "cream always rises to the top", then why is sprint car racing still the only motorsport in the world that penalizes the fast cars? Especially if the fast drivers/cars always end up on top anyway?
Member of this message board since 1997
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August 09, 2008 at
04:37:20 AM
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This message was edited on
August 09, 2008 at
07:21:23 AM by henry chinaski
Reply to:
Posted By: WFO81 on August 08 2008 at 04:51:33 PM
Best format? Trophy Cup.
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I agree the Trophy Cup format is really good. Passing, passing, passing. I have been at the event before and it is fantastic action.
Cheers!
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August 09, 2008 at
10:45:47 AM
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Kville system works well , youll see the fast cars that are (most likely to succeed ) qualify well but thier work isnt over, yes, luck on a good draw comes into play ,Also,Ive seen the track look better the last half of the qualifying , personally, I believe the time (spot)a driver qualifies is purley luck, and this years fast times were pretty scattered , The system works best for the fans , they came to see a race , If a fan wishes to se something preprogramed go watch a play, "the cream does rise to the top" (its going to take a couple good efforts to do this ) The system is there to sell tickets , a little confussing at first , but makes four days of racing entertaining , "its not over till its over "
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August 09, 2008 at
11:52:58 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: Hawker on August 09 2008 at 01:03:54 AM
If the "cream always rises to the top", then why is sprint car racing still the only motorsport in the world that penalizes the fast cars? Especially if the fast drivers/cars always end up on top anyway?
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That is far from true. I grew up as a diehard Northeast DIRT Modified fan and the typical handicapping system for that form of racing always puts the points leader or high money earner 16th-18th in the feature line-up. How are the fast cars being penalized? The system used for the Nationals is much better than a passing points system where a guy can start on the front row, win his heat and still have to run the B-main.
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August 09, 2008 at
01:07:23 PM
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Hawk, the "cream to the top" theory does not apply to the standard WoO format. The National's definately does NOT penalize faster cars to the rear, it just makes them prove who is fast and who isn't a couple extra times before they line them up and determine who takes home the biggest trophy.
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