Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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I am rather new to sprints and the 410 Nats but I have a question about how the scoring is done. I understand the format but question why so much weight is placed on the qualifing lap. As I understand it sprint car racing is about being able to pass to win the race. In the current format your "qualifing lap" carrries as much weight as a feature win. That just seems weird to me and some of the point totals from this years race echo what I mean. First take W. Johnson, he wins his heat (100 pts) and the A feature (200 pts) but because a not as fast "qualifing lap" is starting 14th on Sat. Another example would be say Gary Wright after his qualifing lap he was already 62 points in the hole. He actually could have one his heat and the A feature and not even been locked into Saturdays A with a total of 438. That would be a travesty and not very indicitve of how fast he was. Do not mean to ruffle any feathers and it is still the best 410 show on earth but I just thought I would express my opinion and get yours.

Thanks

I have been a Knoxville Raceway fan for years. I have seen this point system in place since I ahve watched the event. Not sure why they do it, but it is outlined very well for the fans and car owners. If you think the system is bad because of what it does to drivers who get lucky enough to make it to a locked position look at the poor guys who set quick times and then get beat in the locked spots due to racing accidents. The system with passing points and such could be in place to prevent drivers from sand bagging during qualifying. Look at it this way you need passing points to get locked in why not just go out and qaulify last then, win your heat and get a good spot for the feature. The incentives are set so that the drivers run as hard as possible. Qualify first 200 pts, win you heat from the back 1st place points and passing points and a good starting spot for the A main on Qualifying night. There are too many ways to cheat other systems or scoring to get a good starting spot the Nationals make you runs flat out every time your on the track. Hot lap times are not used, they have seperate time trials one car on track two laps. Timing during hotlaps is only done for the benefit of fans and drivers to get a handle on where they stand in the order.

I meant "hot lap" more sarcastically than the actual warm ups, I should have picked another word. I see your point to prevent sand bagging w/passing points. I just thought that running two laps by yourself should not carry as much weight as winning a feature. I know this is the system that has been in place for years so that is why I was concerned it would upset some people to question it.

thanks for your response.

The point system has been in place for many years. Ralph Capitani, the Knoxville race director, said at one point, that "the cream aleays rises to the top".

WJ started closer to the front in his heat due to the inversion; he won it, while Schatz, who had fast time, had to run the B. So Wayne actually benefitted from his slower qualifying time....didn't he?

By awarding the points that Knoxville does for qualifying, it eliminates sandbagging, since every lap that you turn on the track counts. Qualify slow? Yeah, you'll likely start up front in the heat, that you might win, but you'll pay the "penalty" in that you'll get fewer points for your time.

On balance, the format has been pretty fair over the years.....

Chuck.....

GO JAC

I find the current system better than what they used in the early 80's. I learned from the post about Carmen Manzardo that heat race finishing position didn't mean anything as the feature line up was made up of the top 24 in time.

It is my understanding that due to the full invert of the heat race line ups they added points to qualifying a number of years ago to eliminate the sandbagging in qualifying to be able to start closer to the front of the heat.

flyingryan,

You are not correct. Even back in the 80's heat races paid points. The point system used today has been in place every year that I have attended, since 1979, and long before that...CZ

This format is great from a fans perspective. With so many points awarded for qualifying, you are guaranteed that noooo sandbagging will occur. If you are fast in qualifying you will need to pass multiple cars in your heat to help accumulate points all night, otherwise you'll be stuck running the B or C Main. The most important 5 seconds of the Knoxville Nationals for every driver (and I think they should do this in front of the fans) is the pill draw on your qualifying night. As an earlier poster stated - the cream always rises to the top and if a great driver breaks or has misfortune on his qualifying night, then as a fan you will be treated to a highly entertaining weekend. (ie - Alphabet soup)!!

As someone who HATES time trials, this format works for me as long as they keep the full heat invert. If I was running the show the format would look a lot more like the Chili Bowl format with the Knoxville Scrambles thrown in.

My problem is that from driver #1 to Driver #58, the track changes so much in qualifying. And there is not much a driver can do...the track just slows down. So you are not competing on the same even playing field. It comes down to your draw...which is suppose determine who is better....how again?

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There's always a time and a place.

I think that myth can be dispelled by looking at the feature results for Saturday and then looking at where each driver took time on their qualifying night.

I betcha that there will be guys that went out withing the first 10, middle ten and last ten sprinkled throught the final running order.

Maybe, but that doesn't help with the amount of points they get in qualifying...the point is that the points in qualifying are too high....being quick time is not the same accomplishment as winning the A-Main.

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There's always a time and a place.

I would agree with Speedbump. I see your point, regarding the draw, but if you time slow (say 26th) and win your heat, and run top 10 in the A, you should generate enough points to make up for your qualifying effort. I believe two examples would be Pittman and T. Kaeding. Both in the B-Scramble after sub par qualifying.

Point is, (as Cappy says) "The cream rises to the top"

Look, you are trying to determine the best of 120 or so racecar drivers. in the current format the champion has to be on top of his game 5 times in a row.....TT, Heat, Qualy A, Fri Scramble, Sat A. That's five opportunities to screw up, luckily TT are first so you can recover more easily than if it was the Qualy A, but you do get into a hole that you gotta dig out from.

I can't believe that I am arguing for time trials.....like I said the Chili Bowl format would be more fun for me to watch and I think truer test of driver skill.

The Nationals are the best format in sprint car racing anywhere. Can anyone think of another race in the year where you want to be there for time trials? Nope, but these ones you don't want to miss.

To answer the main question, the bottom line is qualifications have to be worth so much because of the completely inverted heats because as someone mentioned, what would stop the top teams from sandbagging qualifying...? The system works. There has never been a fluke winner of the Nationals and never will be so long as they keep the system as is.

The current points format has been used since it was designed by Ray and Naomi Grimes back in the 1970s. That's actually an interesting story within itself. The only major change was the addition of the scrambles in the late 1990s, because they were trying to find a way to augment the Friday non-qualifiers show.

It's a good format that's been proven through the test of time. The draw is usually a factor in timetrials and those two laps on the clock are probably the most important of the week. Is it fair? I don't know. Is the ten car invert in heats too much? I don't think so. I guy who sets fast time and starts tenth in the first heat usually has a narrower track to work with which would be a detriment to passing. So, there can be a trade-off.

As has been stated, the cream rises to the top. For proof, just look at the top eight or so in points. Most of the top guys who were expected to excel this week are there, including the top five in WoO points and the '08 Knoxville season track champion driver and car.

I wouldn't change anything right now, except possibly adding scrambles for the back half or the A and B Feature teams.and drop the heats for the non qualifiers, just running features lined straight up by points on Friday.

I agree. Usually knoxville stays pretty consistent during qualifying but some nights, like last night, there is a huge difference. No format is gonna take the luck factor completely out of racing however. I'd rather see just a one point gap instead of two. In the system right now, if you time bad you can't make up for it no matter what you do.

A

flyingryan, you are half-correct...

The Saturday lineup has always been based on points and heats paid points. You are right that the qualifying night heats were lined up by time...it didn't matter where you finished in the heat. Some heat winners won their heat and were done for the rest of the night as their was no B either. This was in effect for several years.

Before the point system, Saturday's lineup was based on time as well...

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Sure you can.... you can time like total dog$hit like Wayne Johnson did and then go win the heat and feature and lock yourself into the A-Main.

I think it's safe to say, had Wayne timed better and started in the back of his heat instead of the front he likely wouldn't have won it and then would have started further back in his feature and likely wouldn't have won that either.

I'm not saying he wasn't fast or wouldn't have still finished up front....hell, he may have still won both; but it's more likely he would have finished 2nd, 3rd, or 4th in one or both races. It all balances out in the end.

By the way, Billy Alley qualifed late last night and is locked into Saturday's A, and Bronson Maeshon qualified very very late Wednesday and laid down 3rd fast time.

Many great points about the strength of the current system. Understand the points being made about TT's...but, if you take a close look, you'll see it takes strong and consistent performance across all three areas to make it to the top. "The cream always rises to the top" and with the current system, if you're on top, you have definitely worked and earned your way there. Perhaps a little visual data/analysis will help show this: