Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Then Lincoln was the place to be last night. 43 cars passed by the top 5 finishers. Didn't do all the math but it looked like that was more than all the other races combined. Definitely waaaayyyy more than WoO, HL, and Port. 
And the winner passed more cars than WoO, HL, and Port winners combined
Jus sayin

The passing debate always makes me laugh.  Of course you're going to have more passing at a weekly show where there are likely inverts, and the falloff is incredible after the top 6-8 guys.  When you have Glendon Forsythe and Chris Arnold (cue the organ music) starting on the front row, how can there not be exchanges for the lead?  Comparing this to an Outlaw or HL race is laughable.  This is why everyone thought the old All-Star series was so great.  It reminded them of the 1980's World of Outlaws where you had 3 giants playing in the sandbox with kids.  

If you're saying it was great racing and entertainment, leave it at that.  But you cannot help but take a dig which is silly because those 2 series would likely have waxed the entire top 10 if they were there----passing or not.  "just sayin"

The people who respond like you did is what makes me laugh. The racing in the top 3 events last night sucked. Lots of razzle dazzle  yet no substance. Obviously there are two schools of thought here. High speed freight train no excitement, or The fast guys moving through the field picking off "lesser" cars on the way to the top. Ill bet the consensus of "smart" people on this board think a guy leading all 50 laps last week was good racing too. Great story that a young kid wins the big race but all he really did was hold on for 50 laps. You call 80s outlaws 3 giants in a sandbox of kids yet you all revere them as the best ever. Can't have it both ways. The point Wolfie was making is that the Lincoln feature was exciting because there was passing. What a novel idea. I hope it comes full circle and we get back to that style because today's high stake style does suck. You say they all would have waxed the field at Lincoln. Probably if they all had to start up front. You are entitled to an opinion like everyone else, I'll dig at what you are towting like he did. His analysis was correct if you are of the thought passing cars is racing. You obviously like freight trains. Can't we all get along? You could have responded with how exciting the action was in the 3 events he mentioned, yet went after his thoughts about the race he was at. Hmmm, maybe the others were boring. 

I've seen some fantastic battles where very little positions are exchanged, and I consider the racing great!  I don't, however, consider it "great racing" to see a superior car (.5-1.5 seconds faster in qualifying) come up through the field and pass inferior cars.  Bill Balog's first WoO win was a great race where he held off some fierce challenges.  Yet, the box score shows a guy that won from the pole in a snoozer.  Conversly, fans call Doug Wolfgang's charge from the Knoxville Nationals D main in 1990 great racing.  It was fun to watch, but the "great racing" didn't start until he got 1/2 way up in the A.  The rest was Doug hammering on guys that were literally in 3-4 second per lap slower equipment.  Those scenarios don't exist anymore, so it's a complete fantasy to ask how we get back there.  We don't get back there without severly handicapping 3/4 of the field.  Which, going full circle, is generally what you see at a local weekly show.  A few superior cars, a group of middle-of-the road cars, and some inferior cars.  This is where you get the illusion that great racing exists on a local level, and because the cars are so equal at the top of a national touring series field, we have a hard time accepting that passing is very difficult.  

Also, Jackson has not been a racy joint in the past anyways.  Just doesn't seem to widen out and slow down.  If you give me the choice between seeing a 2025 Outlaw show at Lincoln with Outlaw format, or a local show at Lincoln with local format, I'll take today's Outlaw (or HL) show every single time.  Lap cars shouldn't start in front of the field.  They should be getting lapped.  

Exactly!   The WoO format basically guarantees that you won't see much passing or racing in the heat races.   Don't know what the HL format is, but the WoO is bad bordering on terrible.   You might see a good feature, but the heats definetly suck.   

I agree with most of what you said, i would rather see a weekly 410 show than most outlaw parades, i don't care who's racing i want to see passing. Timms didn't hold on, he whipped the big boys butts, drove away for FIFTY laps. He started eighth on his qualifying night feature and won, he was never passed the whole week.

HL and WoO heat races are damned near identical.  All they do is invert the fastest car in each heat to 4th.  Every other car lines up straight up. Winner of the heat is in the dash, and so is the car that started 4th as long as they hit the top-5 transfer spot.  So, rather than the 1st 2 cars in a WoO heat checking out, the pole sitter of a HL race usually checks out, the 4th place starter gets in the dash as long as they don't lose more than 1 spot, and everyone else just kinda holds position for their starting spots in the mains.  It's an illusion that HL heats are better.  They are very similar in most instances.  Occasionally the 4th place starter runs to the front, but it's very rare.  Heats are rarely good.  And, if they are, it means the track is at its raciest point during heats, and is gonna suck for the feature.  (See this year's I-55 Outlaw race----the heats were great, and the track burned up and feature sucked)

Wait? Brandon Rahmer passed a lot of cars? Wow! Usually he's getting passed. 

A

The theory behind the HL system is superior. Inverts should create excitement and fast time is rewarded. At least if they kept the old Ascoc system. I liked that system.

I love it! You still towt high speed freight train no passing garbage as competition. It's almost as if someone who enjoys going to the races to see someone or two or three work their way thru the field to then battle for the win in the final laps is a bad thing. Are you afraid that what you are towting is being challenged. If the competition is so tight nowadays maybe the cars need to be changed. Don't tell me 25 guys on the track are of the same exact skill level. I won't believe you. To demean a theory that proves racing is exciting because the faster cars were "handicapped" to the back and had to prove their worth is pathetic. I visited the so called self proclaimed "capital" of sprint car racing. Totally unimpressed with the racing. Nice facility, wonderful people, great vibe. No go on the action. You also said a track needs to slow down. Is t racing about being fast? As I said before there are two schools of thought here. In my opinion your theory sucks. In your opinion you always demean someone who likes passing.  Sadly going full circle won't happen in my lifetime but I'm forever grateful to have witnessed "racing". Today we hear about crowds dwindling and what not. Maybe the excitement of the pole sitter and second place battling it out for the win all race isnt really racing.

Weeeellll. Some of those passes were a result of cars dropping out and 30 of them were a result of two fast cars having issues in heat races and starting  back a ways.  The box scores don't always tell the whole story.

Two fast cars having trouble in the heats and then passing 30 cars in the feature is a pretty good story. 


 

Don't overlook the fact that smaller race tracks have more passing. That's just the nature of the beast. 

Is it passing or is it the competitiveness of the battle of position that matters? I have always said that for me, seeing 2-3 cars battle it out lap after lap where each are challenging each other lap after lap is better. Having multiple battles like that spread out across the track is even better. The features the last several years with WoO have been great. They continously have had final lap battles for the lead, close finishes, last lap passes. Heat races, I do not care about. Matter of fact, if you were to make a change to a format, to me it would be to get rid of the heat races all together. Not sure what to replace them with but, seems to me the only meaningful lap of a heat race is the first one. After that its just cars parading no matter if you do an invert or not. Knoxville this past  year aside from 1-3 heats had very few fast guys make it through and advance through the heat. Kings Royal heats were not good, I've gone to some local shows and the same thing, cars parading. The feature is the most important part. And having the ,most competitive cars to the front to do battle is what makes the racing part. 

Took me a while to figure out what you were saying....

Its "tout"

I like passing. When I started going to dirt track races in the early 1960s ("jalopies" & "modifieds", old hot rod coupes) season points leader started all the way in back. All the cars were home built & different. Eastside Speedway, Waynesboro, Va. in 1962 Smokey Stover won 22 out of 24 races, starting from the back almost every time. It was great. The whole crowd was all gung-ho "pro Smokey" or "anti Smokey". One of the few times he lost, 3 guys boxed him in, one in front & one on each side. Then they pulled into the infield & had a fistfight.... real hillbilly stuff!

Those days are gone forever. The cars all so similar now.... follow the leader is boring, but there's no way to make it 100% fair. I agree with Nick14 that fast guys didn't even qualify thru the heats at Knoxville.... 8 is too big of an invert nowadays... make it 4 or 6?

But I disagree with him about getting rid of heats. I have to drive 4-5 hours for a good sprint car race, & I want to see as much racing as possible, & I want to see the heats count for something. Maybe line up heats by random draw & let them battle it out?

Who knows? No perfect setup, all I know is I'm glad I got to see Schatz win Knoxville from what, 21st? By far the best sprint car race I ever saw!

I found the video.... good race!

I'm thinking the math should be where they measure the 1/4 mile at, it appears probably the outside, it looks (FROM ALL THE PASSING GOING ON) much smaller from these eyes, but then again...wouldnt that solve "the passing issue"?

Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...

great point Rod. back in the day, way back, it was SOProcedure...

Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...

Lincoln has been outstanding the last 3 races now. Love the points handicapped shows, but the best 1 of the 3 was actually last week when they had TT's. Really running super quick efficient shows as well.