Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Before I comment, I want to be clear:  I LIKE Macri, and was happy to see him win the KR.  I do not care for Kerry Madsen for whatever reason, I just don't care for his personality.  

That said, sitting in the stands, I agreed 100% with both decisions after the yellows came out on the Macri and Madsen yellow flags.  Am I the only person that saw this for what it was?  I have to watch the replay as it happens very quickly from the stands, but from my vantage point this is what I saw: 

Macri's yellow:  Macri slowed on the track.  I did not see the contact, but didn't need to.  He wasn't spinning, or sideways, of gathering it back up, he was slowing on the track and the field began to freightrain him, and he had no intentions of getting back up to speed before the yellow flew.  That is a car causing a yellow.  Not someone who caused the flagman to overreact and throw an inadvertant yellow.  That yellow wasn't inadvertant.  The yellow was because he was completely off the pace and was not coming back up to speed.   Very, very obvious to me.  Did I miss something?

Madsen's yellow:  Once again, I missed the start of it, but saw Madsen get completely out of shape, get passed by a couple of cars, and get immediately back on the gas.  He did not slow.  The yellow came out just as he was getting back on the gas.  He made an attempt ot rejoin the race, and did so successfully.  Did they mess up on where he blended?  It happened so fast, I'll have to watch it back.  They may have been generous by a spot or 2, but he definitely should have been given the spot he was in, because he didn't do anything to bring out the yellow.  He continued.  Macri was coasting waiting for the light.   

I don't feel like it was complete rocket science to distinguish the two situations, but there were about 20,000 confused people sitting near me.................

I watched it on TV and thought they got it wrong.  I shouldn't say wrong, just inconsistent.  They looked like the same thing to me.  I can't watch a replay but from memory it looked like Macri tangled with a car and lost a bunch of positions.  But I can't really say he waited for the yellow, it's hard to say when a driver loses a bunch of momentum on a start.  I personally didn't think he should've gone to the back since he never stopped but he was the reason they threw the yellow.  

The Madsen deal is ridiculous if you ask me.  From memory he fell off the pace and then the caution was thrown.  Was it for him?  I think it's pretty obvious but if the track says the caution was for debris or something like that, then he would get to keep his spot.  But the ridiculous part to me is he had a mechanical problem, I don't think anyone questioned that at the time.  Letting him stay there was dumb for two reasons IMO, it was inconsistent with how they handled Macri.  But it was a huge safety issue having a car start that far up front that might not go.  And it nearly did turn into a wreck.  And then didn't they let him keep that spot on the next restart?  I can't remember but I didn't think they charged that caution to him?

So I would agree they were two different situations however if they weren't going to handle them the same, they should've handled them the opposite way they did.  I wasn't there, that's just how I saw it.

I will have to go back and see if I can watch them in their entirety.  I saw Macri slowing and being passed by everyone, and make no attempt to come back to speed.  That will always result in a yellow unless the car has a clear path to leave the track.  I was sitting on the backstretch and saw Kerry after he was out of shape, he was passed by a few cars, and gathered it back up.  Nothing about Kerry's incident made me believe he was going to come to a stop or pull into the pits.  Macri looked like he was broke and wanted to pull in, and then magically his car came to life when the yellow came out.  

Sorry, but live, I saw it different.  And as I said, I really like Macri, and don't care much for Kerry, so I'm not showing favoritism.  I will have to rewatch it if I can find a way to do so. I didn't see either initial cause, but I saw both cars immediately after the incidents.  

Oner thing I have learned about this board is there are a few people on the board that it does no good to post an opinion different than theirs Because they are always right and you will be wrong. This got much worse during covid.

I agreed with the Macri call. He had made or came close to making contact with Pursley I believe. It was either he ran into the burm to hard or got into Pursley and got way sideways out of the throttle and you could tell he was about to come to a stop then the yellow came out prior to him stopping and then he picked up the throttle. 

Madsen's I watched the whole time because I saw him slow but you could hear that his engine was on as he went bye. I remember saying out loud "oh no he broke while in a transfer." I dont remember how many cars had gotten bye but he started going a second or split second that the caution came up. I was fine with the inital call and wondered if it was a fuel problem and possibly they did not fill up the tank all the way or something was wrong with the pick up. I had a few people talking trash behind me but they were drunk and belignerant and I am sure they would have thrown a fit no matter what the call was. I was not for the call the second time that they let him stay in line or use the  blend rule. At that point my thought is ok, everything is happening fast, split second decision, maybe they did throw the caution too fast, they are darned if they do darned if they don't now. When he didn't get up to speed the second time then he probably should have gone to the tail. 

But, it did not ruin my evening of my nationals. Some people were taking it a bit too seriously in the stands. 

Good to know, we had two different perspectives.  Being there, you can see everything and I only got to see what they showed on TV.  IF memory serves me correct, Macri tangled with a car in turn two and when they were showing the replay they cut it off when he was halfway down the back straitaway.  So I didn't pick up on him slowing down hoping for a yellow, it didn't look like that with what was shown but if he was completely slowed down going into turn three then I see your point but that wasn't shown on TV lol. 

With Madsen he just fell of the pace and they were speculating on the broadcast why it happened.  And again IF memory serves me correct they showed him the entire time under caution and I kept waiting for him to gas it up around a corner to make sure his car was running right but he never did.  However being there, I'm guessing nobody knew or said that he had a problem to fall off pace?  My issue with Madsen was his car quit running or at least running like it should to where the caution came out.  And when the race restarted there was no indication at least that I could see that his car was going to run right.  My biggest issue was coming to green with his car not taking off in front of the entire field.  That was a safety issue in my eyes. 

He defenitely got into Pursley (or whoever it was).  I actually didn't have a problem with that call because if the rule is that you're going to charge the yellow to him then he should go to the back.  Like I said it didn't look like he was waiting on a caution on TV because the didn't show that.

That's funny, I first thought was that it was a fuel issue too once Madsen's car kept going under caution.  I could understand if the car popped out of gear or something like that but obviously the car never stopped so that wasn't the issue.  Like I said above, there was no indication that I saw that the car was going to run right under green.  That was my whole issue, it's a safety issue.  But if you're going to throw a caution for cars being off the pace (which is fair) they should be treated the same.  But you're 100% right when he didn't fire off after the first yellow it was totally stupid to let him try it again.

It didn't ruin my nationals either lol.  Lets be honest even if Madsen starts 21st in the A, he wasn't going to beat Timms.

Also, I don't know if you guys heard it there at the time but Madsen said his gas pedal broke. 

Settle down, nobody's saying anyone's opinion is wrong.  We just had different perspectives.  Nobody's getting nasty with anyone, we're just explaining what we saw.

The OP's last sentence says it all, sounds like about 20,000 fans in the stands were wrong according to him.

I asked if there was something I missed, because it seemed very obvious to me.  And, as it turns out, it appears there was something I missed.  I did not realize Madsen's car appeared to lose power, cause the contact, and then come back to life.  (if I'm reading some of the descriptions correctly)  I caught the tail end of Madsen getting out of shape.  I did not, however, miss the Macri yellow.  He slowed to a snail's pace and brought out the yellow only to fire up and try to get his spot back.  He looked like he was going to stop and needed off the track.  

They announced the gas pedal the next day but we actually saw it down in pits when we went down. Kerry was telling either a friend or crew guy that he was grabbing ahold of the lever or bracket from inside the cockpit and trying to pull it to get the engine to go and steer with one hand. The car did actually pick up and launch a little once the caution came out, and it was able to idle up to speed with all of the other cars. Thats what made me think ok, something just may have gone on the fritz (ignition box, fuel, gear, etc) and it may have worked itself out. Once the green flew the second time and Ashton immediately went and Madsen didnt causing a number of cars to run into each other then that was where it probably should have reverted back to, he caused the caution and should go to the tail. 

I am sure Madsen is losing sleep over some loser on the interrnet not liking his personalitiy. 

Save the loser rhetoric for your Klan rally this week. ICE is hiring basement dwellers too, just a heads up 

What the hell do Klan and ICE comments have to do with someone giving their opinion about  something that happened on the track? Loser mentality? A loser mentality is going on a Sprint car message board and bringing up his shitty political views. There's plenty of places for that.

Madsen - if it weren't for bad luck, he'd have no luck at all.  That gas pedal failure was a $15K part failure.  Not to mention getting run over in Osky Monday night at the line.  An accident, but more work and parts needed to fix the car.

I do not look for the Vermeer folks to go broke anytime soon.

dang it egras just when i wanted to hold this huge conspiracy theory grudge against Knoxville or this time WRG officals you go an ruin it for me with "Macri looked like he was broke and wanted to pull in, and then magically his car came to life when the yellow came out."  tough pill for a Macri fan to take but truly did happen.

I like woO, High Limit, not a huge Madsen fan but love to watch him race, and i am a fan of Macri......So my perspective influenced by a bias for Macri initially said bull crap call rewatched once twice i didn't personally like the call but cooled so to speak....

well your line in quotations above ruined it for me....if i knew how to do smiley faces i'd insert one.......If drivers were reversed i would've looked at it through the same set of glasses for the 55 and thought the same thing about speeding up once the yelllow flew.

Heck the Blend Rule lends itself to drivers thinking this way where in this case a bad start - maybe can work the blend rule.

I thought you started out asking for opinions... so here is mine, but first I have a question.

Since when did we start throwing a caution everytime someone slows? The blend rule sucks... if you cause the caution you should go tail, including a 360 if that is in your rulebook; otherwise (and preferably) hold that damn caution unless someone stops on the track!

On SprintCarUnlimited, Jeremy Elliott actually posted the official clarification. Per WoO rules, any driver involved with a caution on the initial start must go to the rear - there is no blend rule at that point. It would have been nice to maybe have that clarified over the PA, but it seems consistent with the rulebook.

From Chapter 2 (Procedure Rules), Section 1 (Racing Event Rules), Point M (Starts) line K states the following:

K. If a caution comes out on the original start or before one (1) lap is completed, the car or cars that brought out the caution will lineup at the rear of the field and the race will have a complete restart for the remainder of the field with cars lined up by position at the discretion of the race director.

This unfortunately is what nabbed Macri and allowed Madsen to restart with blend later on.

Personally, I dislike the blend rule big time and feel like it's really misapplied and shouldn't exist, but in this case, it looks like everything was enforced per the rulebook. 

I appreciate it.  I'm glad you can get on the board and clearly state who you dislike, but I am not allowed to.   (I don't have a PHD, but I'm assuming by your comments about me, you don't like me)  I wish I liked every single driver like you do...........................................

Thank you for the clarification.  Yes, it would have solved a ton of issues if Johnny had explained that, but 2 things:  1.  It wouldn't have likely calmed the conspiracy theorists down.  And 2.  I already assumed they had a rule book in front of them when they made the call(s)   

I respect your opinion on the blend rule, but I actually like the rule.  Maybe, as someone suggested, it should be reformed a bit so that a 360 is an automatic caution and the driver goes to the rear?  I remember some fantastic saves though where that rule would ruin some fantastic driving.  However, if that were put in place, it would solve a lot of these conspiracy cries we get all of the time.  I remember Danny Lasoski making a fantastic 360 save after contact with nephew in the B-main of championship night.  Yellow came out as he was in full spin, and he drove out of it.  I would have been a shame for them to put him to the back after pulling out of that, but if that would help calm people down on some of these rulings, I would be all for it.  I guess put em to the back for a 360 spin.  But if they don't spin, they need to give them a chance to come out of it. Sometimes the yellow comes way too quick, and we'll have someone turned 10 degrees having a yellow thrown and they'll save it and get put to the back.  I don't like that idea.  

The blend rule allows a driver to gather it back up, and continue on and if the officials throw a yellow right as they are coming out of that predicament, it robs them of the fact that they made the save, and did not wreck or stop.  Then, we get even more conspiracies to deal with.  Larson hits the wall hard, looks certain to wreck, and continues on, but WoO officials throw a yellow and send him to the back.  Gravel runs over Rico's front left, tags the wall and continues on, and the HL offcials throw a yellow and send him to the back.  Both hypothetical situations, but things like this will happen every single week. 

How about just this week with Hickle and Brownie?  Red flag.  Hard contact with Brownie and Hickle.  Hickle's car was out of shape after contact with Brownie.  I don't think Hickle should go to the back, but since he was involved, putting anyone involved in a yellow or red, would send him to the back.  (whether or not I believe he knew what he was doint or not, is a different story---just don't think he should go to the back since he continued)

We're gonna get into a big rabbit-hole if we start sending everyone to the back that's "involved in a caution."  That's got the potential to be a lot of cars during each incident.  I like the way it is now.  If you make it through, and continue on, you don't go to the back.  This involves the car that got out of shape, the car(s) that caused that car to get out of shape, and any cars that may have made contact with the car that got out of shape. 

JMO  I like it the way it is.