Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I love the David Gravel and Brad Sweet debate.  "David is winning in the WoO now that Sweet is gone."  "Gravel can only win if Sweet's not there."  If you haven't seen it here, it's all over every other type of social media.   It's actually fun until people start to spout off with absolutely no knowledge whatsoever.  I'm bored, off work until August 15th, so I grabbed a couple of glasses of bourbon and started doing some digging.  (Ya'll know how much I love stats)      Before I dive in, yes, I know Sweet was the point guy.  I get it.  He is, and always has been a very consistent driver, and reminds me of 1996 Terry Labonte---not going to beat Jeff Gordon, but will out point him.  (see 2017 when Sweet beat Gravel in the points with 5 wins vs. David's 18 wins)  And, Gravel was not quite to the level of Sweet the past few years he ran full-time WoO---we could all see that.  But we also could see a changing of the guard coming soon. 

 I am going to concentrate on wins, and head-to-head comparisons since the split between HL and WoO.  For the record, I have nothing against Gravel or Sweet, and don't root for or against either one of them any more or less.  I stood up and cheered for Gravel when he won the Nationals.  I stood up and cheered for Brad when he won the Nationals.  No real rooting interest.

Gravel and Sweet both ran the WoO full time together from 2014-2023.  In those 10 years, Gravel totaled 86 wins and Sweet 88 wins.  This 10-year stretch even includes the entire season Gravel wasted in that garbage no. 7 Destiny car for no wins.  Pretty even comparison when it comes to wins. 

How about the notion that Gravel can finally win now that Sweet is gone?  Or, now that Sweet is gone, Gravel can finally win some races?  They have met a total of 22 times on the WoO and 6 times in HL since Brad split.  In the 22 World of Outlaws races, Sweet won 2.  I forgot to record the exact number of wins David had in these 22 races, but it was significantly more.  Head-to-head comparson:  Gravel has finished ahead of Sweet 15 times, and Sweet ahead of Gravel 7 times.  Gravel has competed in 6 total High Limit races.  He has finished top 10 in all 6, top 5 in 5 of the 6, and won 2 of them.   So, to recap, Sweet 2 wins in 22 WoO races.  Gravel 2 wins in 6 HL races.  (The "which is tougher WoO or HL" debate can be held off for a different thread-but for those keeping track, that is a win in 1 of 11 WoO races for the defending HL champ and a win in 1 of 3 HL races for the defending WoO champ)

Total wins in both series combined since 2014:  Gravel 112 wins, Sweet 104 wins.

So, I'm confused------why did everyone just absolutely go off the deep end over the past 10 day's results and proclaim that the past 12 years hasn't happened?  Many think David is the guy to beat in the world of full time winged sprint car drivers.  Is he?  Maybe, maybe not, but the stats sure do support anyone who wants to argue that way.  Sweet is a bit older, and I don't think he is quite at the level of David and the 2 right now-----and fans of David have got all of the numbers behind them to argue that point.  I don't really have a favorite between the 2.  I just can't stand the unsupported manure rolling from people's mouths.  

Don't believe me---take a day of vacation, get drunk, and dig up your own stats.  

I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but I did eat lunch at Jimmie John's today in the next booth over from David Gravel. Brad Sweet was nowhere to be seen. I think if the two started side by side on the front row at any sprint car race, the betting would be even money.

Can't argue with that one bit.  The notion that Sweet is the overwhelming favorite and Gravel is lucky he's gone, is ridiculous.  

(did you bug him for a picture and autograph?  Drivers love adults who act like groupies)

Probably Brad Sweet got there first, ate more, and had already left.

I think Sweet and Gravel are a lot more evenly matched than Kinser and Swindell were in their prime.

Right now, with sweet having the high limit distraction, not racing as much, he is not the same he has not been performing what hes capable of. Take high limit away it doesnt exist anymore, with the sole focus of winning the world of outlaw championship , sweet is the supieor of the two. Could gravel beat him once over repeated seasons in the future? Yes. The situation i just mentioned over the next 6 seasons, sweet over gravel in points 4- 5 times out of 6.

That characterization did not come out of nowhere. Sweet won five Outlaw championships in a row. Gravel showed that he could not beat him over the course of a season. If Gravel had beaten Sweet for a championship even once, the perception would probably different. But that's not what happened. The five time champion left, and Gravel was then able to win the title.

Bobby Davis Jr. was also a very good Sprint Car driver, but his 1989 WoO title came because the best driver left. Same deal.

Untill gravel beats sweet for more than one woo championship, big cat is still his daddy. Dont overthink it its that simple.

So, by this logic, since Schatz has won 10 titles, he is still better than both Gravel and Sweet?  

Schatz has not won the title since 2018. Sweet was winning WoO championships right up until he left. Gravel won the title once the guy who won the five previous championships left.

Donnie has been beat head to head by both of these guys. So no. By the way that is not the same logic. Head to head most presently is the logic.

I think they are pretty evenly matched as any 2 top drivers there are. Full disclosure, yes I do pull for Brad Sweet but, I do not have any disdain for Gravel and definetly think he makes any car or team better. I would say that last year and probably this year I would give the edge to Gravel as having the better years, even if Sweet had competed full time with the WoO. However there is that little bit of doubt because of the competitive nature of, what would have happened had they raced 70-80+ times against each other? 

Overall career wise I would give the edge to Sweet over Gravel. Was he head and shoulders above Gravel the whole time? No, but better. I do think both of them do not get the full credit they deserve for the ability that each have though. Gravel has the whole, "Couldn't win a championship until Sweet left" thing and Sweet has the "Well he's a points racer and just won them because of consistency." Last time I checked, Gravel has been either in the top 2 in the win column more often than not. And if Sweet is simply just consistent then how did he end up with 88-89wins including a Knoxville Nationals and multiple Kings Royals. I have always been a proponent of the point system because the higher you finish the more points you get. Yeah you can win 15-20races but, what are you doing in the other 50-60? If you are crashing out and not able to finish up in the races you did not win then you probably will not win the championship. That is what made Donny so dominant with most of those 10 titles. Not only did he win 20-30+ races but when he wasn't winning, we was finishing on the podium. I think it was 2014 and 2015 where not only did he win 26 and 31 races but I think he had 60 top 5s and finished out of the top 10 all but a handful of times? That is why I give the edge to Sweet in the Sweet vs Gravel battle overall, its not just the wins, its about constantly being up front everytime. 

Other than High Limit fan boys, who is still arguing this? Gravel is way ahead of Sweet now. Larson and Rico are Gravels biggest competitors now. 
 

https://speedsport.com/sprints-midgets/gravel-is-north-american-410-sprint-car-driver-of-the-year/

Like i said sweet is not performing to his capabilities hes running a business and not racing as much. I have observed his actions and listened to him talking many times in the pits with him running around seeing whats going on with the movement of the show and how much water is going on the track stuff like that. If gravel is ahead of sweet its because sweet has allowed it. Full attention toward winning a woo title and sweet is the better driver

If that were the case Sweet should be doing better with the Outlaws as he's not "running a business" then. As it is he's won twice in 22 events since he's left. Sweet isn't even a top 5 driver any longer. 

After this weekends nationals tune up my money is on gravel and the 2 crew. Won on Friday coming from 8th, and was the fastest car on Saturday just ran out of laps. Couldn't even tell you how ginger kitty did but wasn't much of a factor either night.

After this weekends nationals tune up my money is on gravel and the 2 crew. Won on Friday coming from 8th, and was the fastest car on Saturday just ran out of laps. Couldn't even tell you how ginger kitty did but wasn't much of a factor either night.

Don't forget about the crew chiefs.  The combination usually gets better with time.  Gravel has been with Jacobs for awhile.  They've definitely gotten more consistent.  Sweet has a new one.  He hasn't looked comfortable for awhile.  Remember what people have said about the Donny/Rick split.  Results don't lie.  It does make a difference. 

Sweet  is now 6th in the current ratings and 8th in the 2025 only ratings.  Just sayin!

Gravel still leads the current ratings, but Buddy has went past him in 2025.

http://www.sprintcarratings.com/RatingsDriver.aspx?RaceType=1

http://www.sprintcarratings.com/RatingsDriver.aspx?RaceType=1

Both Sweet and Gravel are the most consistent in their respective series. I think at this point of the season with competition in both series being very good there are at least 6 drivers capable of winning on any given night. Last week Buddy and Bill  were on their game and Sheldon can be right there.As seen the invert makes a big difference in clean air and yellows probably helped the outcome at last Saturdays race. Lappers seem to get faster when leaders get to them. Without question the fans are the winners when both series run together but the week day shows make it possible for several teams to be able to survive as they can make the feature when there is a 30 car field versus 50+