Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

On Sunday the midget featue of 100 laps did a 16 car invert. It took Larson 90 laps to get near the front. He won eventually. There were a number of restarts plus the refuel/maintenance restart at about 50.   So this tells me that inverts need to be well thought out if we want good racing and the top qualifiers to have a realistic chance to win.

Your thoughts?

He was setting himself up for a run to the finish.  He always seems to lay back for awhile, watching the race play out. a hundred laps didn't take very long, then the hamma went down...

I am a big fan of the invert, takes me back to days of old when the invert was a common thing.  It makes for better racing..

Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...

Larson would have had the lead by lap 50 if he didn't bounce thru 3/4 and give up  a ton of spots early

That was a fantastic race there at the end with those top 3. 

This was a 2 day mini meet where the big dollars go to the points leader at the end of the day two A main. Just like the Trophy cup(20 car invert), you don't have to win the race to win the big money. 

This was a fun race to watch live because there was good racing wherever you looked. I just couldn't believe the track got so dusty after the rain the track got the day before. If you missed the Friday night show, it went green, white, checkered(30 laps  6 min. 14 sec.) Awesome race.

Inverts are stupid. 

Inverts work fine most of time in midget races.  They don't act the same as winged cars.  Inverts also work great with winged cars in a points system such as the ones used by the 360 and 410 Knoxville Nationals.  These two events give drivers many ways to find their way to the deserved starting spot for the features on Saturday night. 

However, in all other cases, I agree 100% with Nick14------inverts don't work, and they suck. 

(Unless David Gravel shows up at your local fair to race the local 410 series----he will likely have no issues coming from the back----wouldn't that be exciting!  Just like watching Kinser in the 80's)

Good inverts like the Nationals which reward for performance are fine for big shows. Dumb, stupid, ridiculous, absurd inverts like the Kings Royal which reward poor performance just so people can pretend it's more exciting that the "fast cars are in the back" as they watch the 36th fastest qualifier luck their way into the pole of one of the richest dirt track races in the country should be abolished. 

That is a good point about the wings or lack of them.  Larson is a smart racer. SOme of them that pushed to hard ended up on the hook and sometimes took others out unfortunately.  So what is the formula for winged events they should use or try?  How about 3 laps per position so say invert 8 for a 25 lap wing feature?

Inverts do make for good racing.   The worst is pill draws.   Lets put the current points leader on the pole for the heat race and we wonder why he checks out.   Oh wait, the current points leader won the first heat and now goes on the pole for the main event, and once again we wonder why he checks out.   Hmmm, there seems to be a lot of people leaving half way through this main event, and once again we wonder why.

There are no good formulas for feature time inverts------except for Wed/Thurs/Fri of the Nationals.  Otherwise, the only inverts should be points based on heats

I think this was a good race and the invert worked out just fine.  I have always thought if a guy is so freeking fast he should be able to pass cars and run up towards the front.  These long races 50-100 laps are different than a 25 lap race.  You can make some plans that may or may not work out but you had 100 laps to figure out the track and the cars ahead of you.

It easy to say "inverts don't work for short races" so how long of race is needed for logical inverts and what are they?  I like to see racing and not the racers starting on the front row running away never having to pass anyone . . . . . . boring!

There are a lot of races like this you can still view.  Look on Youtube and there are tons of races where big guns showed up and raced inferior talent and came through the field.  The mesmorizing 1990 Nationals where Doug Wolfgang blew through 4 fields of cars-----in 3 of those races, most of the cars couldn't run down a 305 today.  How about Jac's run in the B-main at Eldora.  Great entertainment if you like seeing a car on the track 2-3 seconds per lap faster than the rest of the field. 

Some of the best races I've ever seen have involved cars winning from the front 2 rows.  Jason Johnson's Nats win was at the top of the list.  Tim Shaffer's win was pretty amazing too, and I think he started 6th while Schatz and Sammy started in the front 2 rows.  Bill Balog beating the Outlaws at Beaver Dam was a fantastic night of racing and he won from the pole.  It's very rare where all conditions can line up for:  1.  A fast car lining up at the back.  2.  That car being so much faster than the rest of the field that he can drive up to the front    and 3.  The track being in the condition it needs to be for this to actually happen.  I think everyone is asking for the stars to align each and every night.  It is so rare that these 3 can align anymore that the invert idea just needs to go away or sandbagging will become the new norm.  It was just July where everyone said they should punish Gravel for sandbagging to the pole.  Why?  That's what you're all begging for..........you just don't realize it.  

I see you're new here so I'll fill you in.  The invert topic is pretty controversional here.  There's good points on both sides but there's no best answer.  There's two ways to look at it.  Some say with the fastest guys starting up front, it's made for boring heat races.  Others say heat races will be boring regardless so you might as well put the fast guys up front.  Who's right?  Who knows?  However I do think that most nights the features work out and starting position doesn't play a huge role.  If the track is decent, I think anyone in the first three rows can win any night.  My issue is this.  The heat races are boring, some say that's OK, there just there for the feature.  I'm not a big fan of sitting someplace for three plus hours well most of the races are follow the leader when the feature could potentially be over in 7 minutes.  In my opinion, this is a huge part that has killed NASCAR, nothing really matters until the end, again sit there for three plus hours and only the last five minutes really matter.  The same could be said for the current WOO format.  Personally I don't have a problem with the fastest guys starting up front in the feature because I think the track changes enough that you will have different strategies come into play.  However in my opinion something needs to change with the format leading up to the feature.  I'm not sure anyone enjoys watching time trials or watching cars follow eachother in heat races.  I wonder how many of the racers enjoy these either?  I'm not sure if inverts are the ticket but the current format is BORING in my opinion.

Us old timers remember when you came in the gate and had to draw a pill. I am not a fan of timing cars, BORING. If you have an issue or the track is slow until it gets laps on it you have a uphill battle the rest of the night because you have every fast car that is there starting in front of you. It's called racing for a reason, so if you pull an 8 pill in your heat you need to look at who's starting in front of you and really get up on the wheel on the starts to move forward. There is few heat race action that is any good anymore because until the track slicks off its hammer down follow the leader racing and with the fast guys up front you see what you get. I bet if you took the nose wings off these cars you would actually see guys driving them. That 900 horse pony would be useless. Food for thought.

I am new to this group.  I DVR NASCAR so I can watch a race in less than an hour. NASCAR has lots of problems and inovation no longer comes from NASCAR racing.  I do the same with all three classes they have. I'd never pay to attend a NASCAR race nor would I pay to stream it.  I am a fan of some of the drivers. The cars are all the same except for the engines and vehicle wraps. YAWN!

As an engineer type I believe that some kind of handcapping or invert can make the races even the heats more interesting. I just like good racing and not freight train races even if my favorite drivers win. Of course there is no invert template that would fit them all perfectly.  I love multiday events and their systems to determine the starting spots in the mains. If restarts make for tighter races then restarts are good. I do not like to see torn up race cars though. Just good racing!

I believe you should start where you earn! Inverts can penalize the fast cars and that simply is inexcusable!

"Inexcusable" really?  When I started watching racing along time ago. The fast qualifer started last. So the whole field was inverted.  I saw racers clean sweep doing this many times. So much for intelligent positions using facts.

All reasonably competent car/driver combinations should make the invert at all races all the time. Cars way off the pace and rookes start out back. I don't give one shit much less two about the drivers and car owners. I bought a ticket to see racing, the art of passing other drivers on the track. Lots of racing series out there if you like parades. Actually, just save yourself some money and GO to a parade. They usually have free candy.