Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

somebody made a comment not too long ago about ryan smith not being an elite driver.  my point was more that heffner racing isn't an elite team more than whether ryan smith is an elite driver.  it got me thinking though...

who would you consider an elite driver in central pa?  

dewease is the obvious first guy i think of.  aside from that...i feel like it's really hard to call somebody elite.  i use that word for somebody who is at or near the top of the order week in/week out all season long.  there are lots of guys who go on runs and then just disappear.  dietrich, rahmer, macri, wolfe, and even marks all fall into that category.  ryan smith shows consistently but i can't argue that he doesn't win like even he probably wants.  some other guys like logan wagner and brian montieth (what happened to him anyway?) make a home at one track...but struggle elsewhere.

my observation is some of these teams don't give their drivers a chance to develop.  i'm probably worried about how secure my ride is if i'm chase dietz or matt campbell.  the 24 has played musical drivers all year.  it reminds me of the way college/pro sports coaches are treated (some of it deserved...some not).  every athletic director or owner thinks they're a coach away from being alabama or the patriots...so if you're not headed that way in a year or 2...you're gone.  drivers seem to be expendable with certain teams similar to coaches.

this isn't true for dietrich, rahmer, or macri since they're in stable rides...so you wonder what causes the ups and downs of their seasons as well.

I'm not a posse follower by no means, but I know one thing when our guys show up at Port Royal: Macri is damn good there. Realisitcally, it's the 48, 69K, and the 39M. I don't buy in on Freddie, and I consider Brent a True Outlaw over being Posse (I believe he'll be back on the WoO tour next year.) Heffner is just not what it was since losing GH27, but I've seen hype for this new kid they're running. Outside of those teams, I don't view anybody else as threat to win any PA WoO race.

 

It takes a lot of sponsorship dollars to run weekly in central pa. The 27 and the 24 cars have cut back from what they once spent. Hodnett had his share of ups and downs in the 72 so would you call him elite ?  The deal with Madsen and the 24 car still puzzles me ? Rumors about that deal are all over the place, but the one think I do know, Madsen doesn't have a ride. Hummmm. At one time in central pa you had team owners that were as well known if not more so than the drivers themselves. Remember that first line about dollars. Lance is in a happy place, that team just clicks, the ground he makes up on guys getting into 3 at port royal is impressive. One of the biggest things teams have learned over the last 10 to 15 yrs is keep the tires under you. Wheel speed, Freddie gets it, DD does not, that's why he goes backwards many times and Freddie moves forward. So can you call either of them elite drivers ? Motors, tires and tracks have changed tremendously over the years.  Costs have tripled in that same time span. Apple, Hamilton, Weikert I wonder in today's cost of sprint car racing would they still be around ?

getting some popcorn ready .

It's odd that while Central PA tracks seems to be thriving, fan interest at least for the big shows is at an all time high, the level of talent in Posseland could be at an all-time low. Considering how many big races are won by outsiders, and not just the WoO, the All Stars are taking more money out of PA than ever before, I can't remember a time like this.

Lance is a great driver, 100% deserving of Hall of Fame status, and the 69k is an awesome team. But a 55 year-old shouldnt be your best bet against the outsiders. I blame some of this on the allure of travel, Schuchart would have been a great one in Posseland, but he's an Outlaw. Marks has his eye on becoming an Outlaw again. Macri could follow. That leaves Rahmer and Dietrich, who really haven't taken it to the next level.

This question will be easily answered over the course of 4 days in August at the sprint car capitol of the world, Knoxville, Iowa.

The Central Pa. tracks are thriving because without 3 or 4 top notch cars who were more likely to beat the travelers the week;y racing is better than it was when only those 3 or 4 cars had a realistic chance of winning. It is not unusual to line up a feature with fifteen or more capable of winning if things fall right for them. When you throw a traveling group in there no slow cars making the feature and some pretty good ones not making the feature.

The Central Pa. tracks are thriving because without 3 or 4 top notch cars who were more likely to beat the travelers the week;y racing is better than it was when only those 3 or 4 cars had a realistic chance of winning. It is not unusual to line up a feature with fifteen or more capable of winning if things fall right for them. When you throw a traveling group in there no slow cars making the feature and some pretty good ones not making the feature.

IMHO, I feel the only "elite" driver in Posse country is Lance.  Macri, Danny & Freddie are all good, but the Posse sort of died with the losses of Big Fred, Todd Shaffer, Kauffman, Kreitz, Hodnett, Stevie Smith, etc.  That's not a knock on the faster guys of today, however, they're nothing like the big guns of the past.  Just my opinion, of course.

Danny COULD be elite and at times is elite but it depends on what version of him you get. Sometimes, it seems like as you said, he's his own worst enemy. This game is very much mental. When his head is right and his car is working, he's top 10 in the country. But the total package eludes him more often than not. 

I agree 100%. If you take any of those guys you mentioned and put them against todays caliber of competition in their prime, and they'd be almost unbeatable. 30 wins plus a year would be the norm. Hell Fred had three 30 win seasons running AGAINST those guys plus others such as Jeff Shepard, Kevin Gobrecht, Cris Eash etc. Put him with competition of this caliber during his days with Hamilton or Harz and 50 wins would likely happen. Same with Hodnett in the Apple car or Lance during his formidable years with Dyer, Harz and Hamilton. It's absolutely nothing against anyone who's racing today, but this new crop of talent couldn't hold a candle to the ass of those guys. Especially when it comes to the mental aspect of the sport. Those guys back then ate, slept and shit greatness. Everything they did from the time they woke up in the morning until they went to bed was geared toward teying to be better than they were yesterday. That's what impresses me so much about Devon Borden. The kid is fearless and has that same old school attitude that none of todays posse guys have. WHEN he puts it all together, he's going to be an absolute beast. Their level of focus and their intensity on the track was something to behold. Today's guys just don't have it. At least not yet and anyone who experienced that era knows exactly what I'm talking about.

1) Freddie better learn to time trial if he wants to be elite. It isn't 1998 anymore. Way more time trial races nowadays. 2) The handicapping format is a shadow of its former self. Not that it's by any means easy, but most weeks, the top guys are able to get themselves a starting spot in the first 3 rows by passing a few far inferior cars in their heat race. Hardly a gauntlet. Now starting 12th every night and having to outduel Rahmer, Hodnett, Shaffer, Lance, Kauffman, Shepard, Gobrecht, Eash, Pauch etc to win....now THAT was tough. 

Agreed! The reason it's tougher to be "elite" nowadays is because 90% of these teams now have equal equipment. It's not like it was a couple decades ago when you had 4-5 big money teams that hired the best drivers and best crew chiefs and dominated over lower level drivers in lower level equipment. Just look at Fred, Greg, Shaffer, Kauffman, Kreitz all struggling to win as much in their last years and Lance before he got into then 69k. It's tougher nowadays because the fields are more even. Marks is certainly elite. 

A

My apologies for missing Shepard, Gobrecht, Eash, etc.  I'm sure there's even more that I missed. These guys today have no idea. 

I honestly don't get how Freddie could be in any of this conversation. He is not elite, he is not even a top 5 PA car anymore. He's barely top 10 He runs Lincoln and the Grove. He doesn't even run a full speedweek anymore. Freddie is not considered a threat when outsiders come to town EXCEPT Lincoln, and even right now that is a stretch. If you had a gun to my head and told me to pick Logan Wagner at Port against the Outlaws or Freddie at Lincoln against the All Stars...I'm going Logan.

69k is the only one. 48 and 39m are top 10 contenders and could occassionally compete for wins if they didn't step on the ole PP as much as they do. 5w is finding some consistency and can maybe sneak into this convo by seasons end. 

69K is the current point leader at Williams Grove. 

Can somebody help the out of towners with the scorecard please? I know that DeWease is in the 69k, but I don't know who drives the 48, 39m, etc.

-Thanks

Danny Dietrich and Anthony Macri. To me it's those two and Lance. As for Midwest Elites... damn idk who we got or who we can claim. Is it ok to say Kerry Madsen?? 

Lance is the only elite driver. Dietrich, Lil Freddy & Marks are good but not great, & Macri is the rising star...

The North American 410 Sprint Car Poll is an annual awards program of the National Sprint Car Hall of Fame & Museum. All awards will be distributed in 2021 at tracks throughout North America. The awards are annually announced at the Lucas Oil Chili Bowl Midget Nationals in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

North American 410 Sprint Car Poll Top 20

Position. Name, Hometown, Points (First Place Votes)

1.   Kyle Larson, Elk Grove, CA, 1220 (11)
2.   Brad Sweet, Grass Valley, CA, 700 (1)
3.   Logan Schuchart, Hanover, PA, 425
4.   Donny Schatz, Fargo, ND, 360 (1)
5.   David Gravel, Watertown, CT, 309
6.   Aaron Reutzel, Clute, TX, 282
7.   Sheldon Haudenschild, Wooster, OH, 228
8.   Danny Dietrich, Gettysburg, PA, 132
9.   Cory Eliason, Visalia, CA, 111
10. Carson Macedo, Lemoore, CA, 107
11. Anthony Macri, Dillsburg, PA, 90
12. Freddie Rahmer, Salfordville, PA, 71
13. Brian Brown, Grain Valley, MO, 69
14. Lance Dewease, Fayetteville, PA, 60
15. Cap Henry, Bellevue, OH, 45
16. Bill Balog, Hartland, WI, 38
17. Jacob Allen, Hanover, PA, 34
18. Daryn Pittman, Owasso, OK, 27
19. Rico Abreu, St. Helena, CA, 19
20. Shane Stewart, Bixby, OK, 17

For more information on the National Sprint Car Hall of Fame & Museum and the special events happening here, visit www.SprintCarHoF.com and follow us on Facebook and Twitter! 

Brent Marks, Brock Zearfoss and 2018, 2019 & 2020 Port Royal Track Champion Logan Wagner need included in this conversation as well.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com