Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

This has to be one of the least thought-out formats I've seen in some time. I love the Nationals format, but the modifications they've made make very little sense. The average car strength at Jackson is much higher than Knoxville, which makes inverts much more difficult to navigate and on a track that is not nearly as racey as Knoxville typically is. And somehow you're throwing in dashes too?

Not a fan.

Do you have a link to that info?

https://worldofoutlaws.com/sprintcars/2020-format-agco-jackson-nationals/

"Average car strength at Jackson is much higher than Knoxville"...Nice April Fools joke, just a few months late....

k

I worded it specifically that way instead of saying stronger field and still believe it to be a correct assessment. Regardless, inverting six still makes it more difficult as you're putting faster cars in the front and second rows than relative to Knoxville format of inverting eight.

Appears to me that someone put a lot of work into making it really hard to follow. 

Not saying it's a good format or not. But with 44 cars (20 of which will make the A main at The Knoxville Nationals) yes on average this has a higher average car strength than 100 ish cars at Knoxville in August.

Now to the Outlaws... the format whether good or bad is for the fans. Them throwing a fit so they can run their typical format of absolutely favoring the high budget teams is not a good look. WoO format isnt my favorite. Don't get me wrong, I support the WoO and love going to their shows because their A mains still are usually great but the heats are almost worthless. It's like watching another session of hot laps most of the time. Some of the smaller elbows up tracks have some ok heats where some people can just flat out race but not qualify. Most larger tracks are not that way. Having woo regulars at Jackson act like they are going to just leave makes them look like a bunch of pansies. Strap up and go and if u sand bag and miss the invert in qualifying, well then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Heats are almost always worthless at any track.  If you want a good non-qualifiers race and a good feature, the early heats usually suck and sometime the late heats are decent.   There is no good answer to this problem.  The Outlaws, in my opinion, have the most fair format of any series.  Fast cars are rewarded for hitting the track fast.

The only invert system that works in all of sprint car racing is the Knoxville Nationals.  They have it nailed.  I know some don't like it, but it is the best format in all of dirt racing IMO.  One night shows should not use inverts.  

JMO

They don't even run 410's on a weekly basis do they?  Brown, McCarl (both), and Madsen are likely stronger than anything Jackson might offer methinks....

You're missing the point - there is a difference between strength of field and average car strength. The Nationals loses average car strength because of the lower tiered entrants. 

If, theoretically, you had a 10-car field with driver/equipment ratings out of 100, which would you say is the tougher field but which has the better average driver/equipment rating?

Field A - 99 94 92 85 82 62 43 29 20 12 (5 cars 82+, mean rank of 61.8, median 72)

Field B - 81 78 74 70 66 61 58 50 48 41 (0 cars 82+, mean rank of 62.7, median 63.5) 

This above theoretical is not a direct comparison to the Jackson/Knoxville fields but rather an example of how this theory works. Field A is much stronger IMO with five cars 82+, however field B ias a better average field. 

Thanks for coming to my elementary math TED Talk.

What Egras said...

I agree with you there!

You have no point, you are just WRONG!

All you had to do dummy was insert the word 'tonight' and your point made sense.  As written it does not...

I was a math guy who got paid to write, go figure.....

My 2 cents on the format, I know this subject has been talked over and over again, and this will be very long, but here they are...

If you are going to have a format, that involves time trials and heat race finish lining up the A (aside from the dash), the only fair way is to line up the heats with no invert.  Today's cars are so even, and combine that with a lot of tracks are very narrow early in the night, it is sometimes very difficult for drivers to pass during a heat race.  Not all the time, but I would say the majority of the time.

Now, to the subject of this thread, the format for the prelim nights of the Jackson Nationals this weekend.  They invert 6, take top 5, top 2 to the dash, and line up after the dash based on heat race finish is very difficult.  Last night, after the first lap, the track was bottom dominate and not much movement, especially in the top 2, once they strung out.  Of the 4 heats, all 4 were won from the front row (from timing in positions 17-24), and for finishing 2nd in the heat, 1 from the front row, 2 from the second row, and 1 (Brad Sweet) from row 4.  

The difference in the Jackson Nationals format, and the format with the Knoxville Nationals format, is with Knoxville, its invert 8, but if you qualify for the feature (top 4) from your heat, you at least got 'your time back', as opposed to lining up by heat race finish.  But even the feature was still an invert 8.  That is at least a little more fair.

I'm sure as we come to Saturday night, the cream will rise to the top no matter the format, and we probably will have the usual suspects starting up front.  They are that good, and they will get there.

More on 'formats'...
Back in the day, both the World of Outlaws, and All Stars, would invert 6 in the heats, and take 5, with everyone getting their time trial back for lining up the dash and feature.  The main complaint about this, was the drivers in qualifying positions would not have much incentive to race hard in the heats.  If you were in positions 1 through 4 as the heat race went on, as long as you were not being challenged, they would just ride around.  In my opinion, the excitement of those races were watching the invert guys in row 3, the top guys in time trials, battling for that 5th position.

Now, to the current formats of the Outlaws and All Stars, I think they have added excitement to the heat races, with finish of heat determines alot.  The Outlaws have the top 2 positions go to the dash, so those positions are important.  With the All Stars, they are inverting 4, with the heat winner, and 'fastest' time trial qualifier going t the dash.  Are these formats perfect for the fans AND drivers, no, but I think its 'better' than the past.

The USAC wingless format is also interesting that makes the heat races exiting.  They invert 6 and take top 4, and line up feature based on time trial with the top 6 inverted.  this adds excitement with the fast guys really having to hustle to qualify in the heats, but doesnt penalize them too much if they have to run the B, as they get their time back.  They added a great tweak this year, with the heat race winners start behind the top 6, allowing the guys who didnt time trial well a great incentive in the heat to really improve their feature starting position.

Now, what makes certain races great, like the Knoxville Nationals, Kins Royal, World 100 and Dream (Eldora-Late Models), is their unique formats that make the heat races very exciting and meaningful.  But those only work a few times a year in my opinion for those special races, but I dont think you can expect teams to be running those formats every weekend on most tracks.  Teams would tear up a lot of equipment which is not a good thing.

The last point I wanted to bring up, is the new (at least last year) PA speedweek format that I think is interesting based on the no invert from time trail formats....
Fastest cars from time trials start heat races in the fourth position. Remainder of line-up to be heads-up from time trials. Qualify 8 from two heats, 6 from three heats and 5 from four heats.Feature line-up to be heads-up from heat finishes after draw eligible cars.Draw eligible cars include fastest time trial car from each heat that finishes in a qualifying position and the heat race winners. There will be 6 cars draw eligible with a three-heat format and 8 cars draw eligible with a four-heat format. Draw eligible drivers will draw individually for starting positions in the feature.
...This format, in my opinion, doesn't 'penalize' drivers for having a good time trial, makes the drivers with the best times race in the heat, and rewards the heat winners.  My only complaint would be starting the fastest guy 4th when taking 5.  All he has to do is 'maintain' his position and not make a mistake.  Would be interesting to start them 6th and take 5, at least that way he has to hustle somewhat in the heat.

I'm sure the discussion will turn to time trials vs passing points, but I have not seen very many passing points races to have a strong opinion on them.  There are pros and cons I'm sure.

Bill
SprintCarRatings.com

What if the cars had less traction and produced less turbulence?

Inverting 6 is fine as long as you're not having a dash. To me, rewarding the 17th to 24th fastest guys with a front row spot in the heat and potentially the dash is kind of silly. Even Knoxville rewards the top 8 that get in via the heats with a top 8 starting spot.

Jackson is a racey enough track that you can move up, but it's still tough in 10 laps.

It doesn't need the word tonight anywhere - the average car strength on any given night of the Jackson Nationals is higher than the average car strength of any given night of the Knoxville Nationals. 

You're struggling here, Nelly.

The problem isn't necessarily with the format but rather the cars and track conditions as others have alluded to. Many formats become viable if passing wasn't so difficult in heat races, where the best drivers are allowed to utilize their skill edge.

I've always thought the best single-night format is some kind of points hybrid similar to what Knoxville uses for Nationals and their weekly show. I think the issue is that any format is inherently going to have one issue or another - either it won't have inverts, which is most fair to the drivers but not as exciting for fans, or it will have inverts and won't be as fair to the drivers but more exciting for the fans.

Heck, I think even now the WoO Dash Draw has way too much of an effect. I don't have any data to support this but feel like there have been plenty of cases of a driver timing quick, winning their heat and then drawing back in the dash and struggling to get to the front of the A. 

I'd love to see some different formats tested at certain events. I know people are always worried about sandbagging time trials so I still think it would be nice to qualify and then randomly determine a heat invert after qualifications are done. With that and a points system that combines qualifying effort and heat finish to set the A lineup, 

The format worked really good last night.  The fast cars went to the front no matter where they started in the heat.  I like that they have to earn it instead of it being handed to them in the heat.  The outlaw format is messed up.  A lot of times all you have is follow the leader in the heats because of the format....sorry Johnny.  I think it is one of the worst formats in racing.

I like the old fashion way inverting....you know those old Smith - Barney comercials.  They earned it!!  

See Jackson Nationals, Kings Royal, and Knoxville Nationals.  They have the best formats.  That is why they have a ton of fans show up for those races.

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

I didn't look look much into the format or really care about Jackson's format compared to Knoxville, Outlaws, Kings Royal, All Stars, PA, FAST, USAC, ASCS, USCS, BSFU, PMS, etc or whatever. But, I will say that next year I am ordering tickets and going to the Jackson Nationals after last night. Logan, Brad, Sheldon put on a show and that was only a fraction as good as it could have been had the caution not come out on lap 18. Hoping next year I can attend the Jackson Nationals, Kings Royal, and Knoxville Nationals.