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Topic: Traditional sprints Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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RodinCanada
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July 05, 2019 at 10:19:27 PM
Joined: 07/24/2016
Posts: 1726
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What is significant about a traditional sprint as they raced at Cedar Lake tonight? Are they something special or original that deems the title?


Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!


revjimk
July 06, 2019 at 12:25:36 AM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7617
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Posted By: RodinCanada on July 05 2019 at 10:19:27 PM

What is significant about a traditional sprint as they raced at Cedar Lake tonight? Are they something special or original that deems the title?



It usually means wingless



EasyE
July 06, 2019 at 09:48:03 AM
Joined: 10/29/2017
Posts: 386
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I've been around sprint car and every kind of dirt track racing for 42 years and I've never heard a nonwing sprintcar called that. I get smarter and smarter every day.......




StanM
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July 06, 2019 at 01:26:24 PM
Joined: 11/07/2006
Posts: 5581
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Posted By: RodinCanada on July 05 2019 at 10:19:27 PM

What is significant about a traditional sprint as they raced at Cedar Lake tonight? Are they something special or original that deems the title?



They're a spec engine pretty close to what they'd run in a B Mod with an alcohol carburator.  Rules are posted on the UMSS website. They're a blast to watch and there are generally pretty good fields, even for weekly shows.  The neat thing about them is that we're overrun with Stock Car and Modified classes up here and they're luring drivers out of those divisions.  They're by no means anything like USAC but they're often the most etertaining class on the weekly programs.

 


Stan Meissner

Jake B.
July 06, 2019 at 06:22:30 PM
Joined: 10/21/2005
Posts: 526
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This message was edited on July 06, 2019 at 06:26:40 PM by Jake B.
Reply to:
Posted By: RodinCanada on July 05 2019 at 10:19:27 PM

What is significant about a traditional sprint as they raced at Cedar Lake tonight? Are they something special or original that deems the title?



As revjimk indicated, "traditional" is essentially another term for wingless.  The individual sanctioning group doesn't factor into that term.  Sprint cars from the 30s, 40s, 50s, and early 60s did not have wings.  That's why wingless cars are traditional.  Wings were a performance add-on that started to take hold in the late 60s and became the norm around the country in the late 70s/early 80s.


Signature here.

StanM
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July 07, 2019 at 09:23:45 AM
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Posted By: Jake B. on July 06 2019 at 06:22:30 PM

As revjimk indicated, "traditional" is essentially another term for wingless.  The individual sanctioning group doesn't factor into that term.  Sprint cars from the 30s, 40s, 50s, and early 60s did not have wings.  That's why wingless cars are traditional.  Wings were a performance add-on that started to take hold in the late 60s and became the norm around the country in the late 70s/early 80s.



I remember when there weren't roll cages or wings and the cars had injector stacks sticking out of the hood.  The cages didn't come along until the 70's and wings on Sprint Cars about ten or so years later.  We went for decades without any non-wing racing so I was happy to see the UMSS Traditional program get some traction.  Trips to watch non-wing racing are rare, the Million was my last one, so I appreciate being able to see that kind of racing close to home.


Stan Meissner


revjimk
July 07, 2019 at 12:30:50 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7617
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This message was edited on July 09, 2019 at 12:12:52 AM by revjimk

Actually first winged sprint car was in 1958, but as others have said, didn't become standartd practice for several years: 

Winged sprint cars[edit]

 
World of Outlaws drivers make a Four Abreast lap at the Knoxville Raceway

The world's first winged car, known today as a winged sprint car, was created and driven by Jim Cushman at the Columbus Motor Speedway (Ohio) in 1958.[6] In the early 1970s, many sprint car drivers began to put wings with sideboards on both the front and top of their cars. The added wings increased the downforce generated on the car, with the opposite direction of the sideboards helping to turn the car in the corners. The increased traction makes the car faster and easier to control.

The wing also affects safety. The added downforce lessens the likelihood of going airborne. When cars do go airborne, the wings frequently break off or absorb some of the impact of the flip, lessening the impact on the driver. Wings also provide an amount of protection for the driver in case of an accident and are sometimes referred to as "aluminum courage." In some cases, teams are able to replace the wing during the ensuing stoppage and are able to race once the race resumed.

In 1978, Ted Johnson formed the promotional body for winged sprint cars called the World of Outlaws. Racing throughout the United States from February to November, the World of Outlaws is the premier dirt sprint car racing series. Famous tracks featured in the series included the Eldora Speedway in Rossburg, Ohio, the Lernerville Speedway in Sarver, Pennsylvania, the Knoxville Raceway in Knoxville, Iowa and Williams Grove Speedway in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. Each August, the Knoxville Raceway holds the Knoxville Nationals.

In 1987, Australia followed suit with its own national series for winged sprint cars called the World Series Sprintcars, founded by Adelaide based sedan driver and then Speedway Park track promoter John Hughes. Famous Australian tracks used in the WSS have included Speedway Park/City in Adelaide, South AustraliaClaremont Speedway and later Perth Motorplex in PerthWestern AustraliaValvoline Raceway in SydneyNew South WalesArcherfield Speedway in BrisbaneQueensland, and the Premier Speedway (home of the Grand Annual Sprintcar Classic) in WarrnamboolVictoria. There is also a single meeting Australian Sprintcar Championship which has been run since 1963 and has been run under various class names before finally settling on the Australian Sprintcar Championship in 1979. While non-Australian (usually American) drivers are free to race in the WSS and other meetings including the various State Championships, only Australian drivers are permitted in the Australian Championship meeting.

The Grand Annual Sprintcar Classic at Warrnambool is the largest sprint car meeting in the world; in the 2014-15 season, the 2015 Classic race outdrew the Knoxville Nationals in entries.

Until the late 1990s, Sprintcars in Australia were restricted to 372 cui (6.0L) V8 engines as opposed to the 410 cui (6.7L) engines used in the United States. Currently Australia runs two classes of winged Sprintcars, the 410 or Open class, and one for cars with 360 cui (5.9L) engines. Both classes have separate Australian Championship meetings.



steelcityguy
July 07, 2019 at 01:49:50 PM
Joined: 04/13/2014
Posts: 512
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Yeah my old man started running sprint cars in central Pa in '68 or '69 and he had a wing.



sprintcarfanatic
July 07, 2019 at 03:25:24 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1065
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Seems fitting that the 1st wing car be run in Ohio !!!




StanM
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July 07, 2019 at 05:15:23 PM
Joined: 11/07/2006
Posts: 5581
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Posted By: revjimk on July 07 2019 at 12:30:50 PM

Actually first winged sprint car was in 1958, but as others have said, didn't become standartd practice for several years: 

Winged sprint cars[edit]

 
World of Outlaws drivers make a Four Abreast lap at the Knoxville Raceway

The world's first winged car, known today as a winged sprint car, was created and driven by Jim Cushman at the Columbus Motor Speedway (Ohio) in 1958.[6] In the early 1970s, many sprint car drivers began to put wings with sideboards on both the front and top of their cars. The added wings increased the downforce generated on the car, with the opposite direction of the sideboards helping to turn the car in the corners. The increased traction makes the car faster and easier to control.

The wing also affects safety. The added downforce lessens the likelihood of going airborne. When cars do go airborne, the wings frequently break off or absorb some of the impact of the flip, lessening the impact on the driver. Wings also provide an amount of protection for the driver in case of an accident and are sometimes referred to as "aluminum courage." In some cases, teams are able to replace the wing during the ensuing stoppage and are able to race once the race resumed.

In 1978, Ted Johnson formed the promotional body for winged sprint cars called the World of Outlaws. Racing throughout the United States from February to November, the World of Outlaws is the premier dirt sprint car racing series. Famous tracks featured in the series included the Eldora Speedway in Rossburg, Ohio, the Lernerville Speedway in Sarver, Pennsylvania, the Knoxville Raceway in Knoxville, Iowa and Williams Grove Speedway in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. Each August, the Knoxville Raceway holds the Knoxville Nationals.

In 1987, Australia followed suit with its own national series for winged sprint cars called the World Series Sprintcars, founded by Adelaide based sedan driver and then Speedway Park track promoter John Hughes. Famous Australian tracks used in the WSS have included Speedway Park/City in Adelaide, South AustraliaClaremont Speedway and later Perth Motorplex in PerthWestern AustraliaValvoline Raceway in SydneyNew South WalesArcherfield Speedway in BrisbaneQueensland, and the Premier Speedway (home of the Grand Annual Sprintcar Classic) in WarrnamboolVictoria. There is also a single meeting Australian Sprintcar Championship which has been run since 1963 and has been run under various class names before finally settling on the Australian Sprintcar Championship in 1979. While non-Australian (usually American) drivers are free to race in the WSS and other meetings including the various State Championships, only Australian drivers are permitted in the Australian Championship meeting.

The Grand Annual Sprintcar Classic at Warrnambool is the largest sprint car meeting in the world; in the 2014-15 season, the 2015 Classic race outdrew the Knoxville Nationals in entries.

Until the late 1990s, Sprintcars in Australia were restricted to 372 cui (6.0L) V8 engines as opposed to the 410 cui (6.7L) engines used in the United States. Currently Australia runs two classes of winged Sprintcars, the 410 or Open class, and one for cars with 360 cui (5.9L) engines. Both classes have separate Australian Championship meetings.



My recollection is that the csrs that sprouted cages and wings were referred to by other terms such as Super Sprints and dirt Supermodified.  Sprint cars continued to run without wings until they became mandatory.  Some drives like 1962 Nationals winner held out as long as he could until IMCA went to a roll cage rule for their Fair circuit.  His reason was said to be that the chassis didn't fllex enough with a cage.  On a side note my cousin bought the #63 from Wagner, the same car that Richert won IMCA Sprint Car titles in and added a cage and wing and ran it in those other divisions.  There might be some regional variation but I attended races back then and saw the cars evolve during that time and that is how I recall those changes progressing.


Stan Meissner

Murphy
July 07, 2019 at 07:45:50 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3321
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Reply to:
Posted By: revjimk on July 07 2019 at 12:30:50 PM

Actually first winged sprint car was in 1958, but as others have said, didn't become standartd practice for several years: 

Winged sprint cars[edit]

 
World of Outlaws drivers make a Four Abreast lap at the Knoxville Raceway

The world's first winged car, known today as a winged sprint car, was created and driven by Jim Cushman at the Columbus Motor Speedway (Ohio) in 1958.[6] In the early 1970s, many sprint car drivers began to put wings with sideboards on both the front and top of their cars. The added wings increased the downforce generated on the car, with the opposite direction of the sideboards helping to turn the car in the corners. The increased traction makes the car faster and easier to control.

The wing also affects safety. The added downforce lessens the likelihood of going airborne. When cars do go airborne, the wings frequently break off or absorb some of the impact of the flip, lessening the impact on the driver. Wings also provide an amount of protection for the driver in case of an accident and are sometimes referred to as "aluminum courage." In some cases, teams are able to replace the wing during the ensuing stoppage and are able to race once the race resumed.

In 1978, Ted Johnson formed the promotional body for winged sprint cars called the World of Outlaws. Racing throughout the United States from February to November, the World of Outlaws is the premier dirt sprint car racing series. Famous tracks featured in the series included the Eldora Speedway in Rossburg, Ohio, the Lernerville Speedway in Sarver, Pennsylvania, the Knoxville Raceway in Knoxville, Iowa and Williams Grove Speedway in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. Each August, the Knoxville Raceway holds the Knoxville Nationals.

In 1987, Australia followed suit with its own national series for winged sprint cars called the World Series Sprintcars, founded by Adelaide based sedan driver and then Speedway Park track promoter John Hughes. Famous Australian tracks used in the WSS have included Speedway Park/City in Adelaide, South AustraliaClaremont Speedway and later Perth Motorplex in PerthWestern AustraliaValvoline Raceway in SydneyNew South WalesArcherfield Speedway in BrisbaneQueensland, and the Premier Speedway (home of the Grand Annual Sprintcar Classic) in WarrnamboolVictoria. There is also a single meeting Australian Sprintcar Championship which has been run since 1963 and has been run under various class names before finally settling on the Australian Sprintcar Championship in 1979. While non-Australian (usually American) drivers are free to race in the WSS and other meetings including the various State Championships, only Australian drivers are permitted in the Australian Championship meeting.

The Grand Annual Sprintcar Classic at Warrnambool is the largest sprint car meeting in the world; in the 2014-15 season, the 2015 Classic race outdrew the Knoxville Nationals in entries.

Until the late 1990s, Sprintcars in Australia were restricted to 372 cui (6.0L) V8 engines as opposed to the 410 cui (6.7L) engines used in the United States. Currently Australia runs two classes of winged Sprintcars, the 410 or Open class, and one for cars with 360 cui (5.9L) engines. Both classes have separate Australian Championship meetings.



     I presume that's a Wikipedia article and, as is par for the course, it's got a glaring error in it. Ted Johnson didn't start a winged sprint car promotional body. The WoO started out as non-wing (traditional) sprint cars. They raced wing and non-wing, I believe, depending on local preference. I think it was Knoxville making wings manditory that caused the WoO change to winged only.



rogerp48
July 08, 2019 at 12:17:39 PM
Joined: 12/24/2004
Posts: 2
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Reply to:
Posted By: Murphy on July 07 2019 at 07:45:50 PM

     I presume that's a Wikipedia article and, as is par for the course, it's got a glaring error in it. Ted Johnson didn't start a winged sprint car promotional body. The WoO started out as non-wing (traditional) sprint cars. They raced wing and non-wing, I believe, depending on local preference. I think it was Knoxville making wings manditory that caused the WoO change to winged only.



May 1982, Gary Scott was killed at Knoxville during the start of the A main, I was there and was terrible to witness. Previously, Roger Larson, Darrel Dawley and Dick Stoneking were killed 3 years prior. After Scott’s death, Cappy and the Knoxville Fair Board, I would guess the track insurance company played a part, determined that wings would be made mandatory for safety reasons. What I heard and read after Knoxville made wings mandatory and since the Knoxville Nationals would be a wing event, other tracks and WoO made wings mandatory for their tracks and organizations. I also understand that race track insurance companies made the decision by tracks easy. Run non-wing cars, pay through the nose for track insurance. With the popularity of non-wing sprint cars are today and more and more tracks are hosting them, I don’t know how insurance companies are playing a part any more. I love non-wing sprint car racing and look forward to many more teams starting and events in the future.

 




dirtraceorbust
MyWebsite
July 08, 2019 at 12:35:41 PM
Joined: 10/10/2009
Posts: 650
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Knoxville balked at having Winged racing for a long time, and you are right that after Gary Scott was killed there, and 10 more the previous 20 years, they were prressured into changing to wings. A few teams said they wouldn't come back if they couldn't run wings.   Of course there can be and are terrible accidents with wings as well, they are much less frequent.  Still too often.  The danger is part of the reason fans show up in droves, that can't be denied.  Fans don't want accidents, but the speed and side by side racing is fun to watch.  


Lawlessness + liberalism = HELL -  NYC, Detroit, Chicago, 
Seattle, LA  Who the H runs those cities. 

revjimk
July 09, 2019 at 12:17:17 AM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7617
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Posted By: StanM on July 07 2019 at 05:15:23 PM

My recollection is that the csrs that sprouted cages and wings were referred to by other terms such as Super Sprints and dirt Supermodified.  Sprint cars continued to run without wings until they became mandatory.  Some drives like 1962 Nationals winner held out as long as he could until IMCA went to a roll cage rule for their Fair circuit.  His reason was said to be that the chassis didn't fllex enough with a cage.  On a side note my cousin bought the #63 from Wagner, the same car that Richert won IMCA Sprint Car titles in and added a cage and wing and ran it in those other divisions.  There might be some regional variation but I attended races back then and saw the cars evolve during that time and that is how I recall those changes progressing.



I'm not really concerned about what they called 'em

But i think you get my point... winged circle track dirt car, right?



revjimk
July 09, 2019 at 12:19:36 AM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7617
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This message was edited on July 09, 2019 at 12:21:04 AM by revjimk
Reply to:
Posted By: Murphy on July 07 2019 at 07:45:50 PM

     I presume that's a Wikipedia article and, as is par for the course, it's got a glaring error in it. Ted Johnson didn't start a winged sprint car promotional body. The WoO started out as non-wing (traditional) sprint cars. They raced wing and non-wing, I believe, depending on local preference. I think it was Knoxville making wings manditory that caused the WoO change to winged only.



Yep, Wiki, & i think you're right

It was the first article I found that mentioned earliest winged "sprint car/ super modified whatever".....




Murphy
July 09, 2019 at 10:13:35 AM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3321
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Posted By: rogerp48 on July 08 2019 at 12:17:39 PM

May 1982, Gary Scott was killed at Knoxville during the start of the A main, I was there and was terrible to witness. Previously, Roger Larson, Darrel Dawley and Dick Stoneking were killed 3 years prior. After Scott’s death, Cappy and the Knoxville Fair Board, I would guess the track insurance company played a part, determined that wings would be made mandatory for safety reasons. What I heard and read after Knoxville made wings mandatory and since the Knoxville Nationals would be a wing event, other tracks and WoO made wings mandatory for their tracks and organizations. I also understand that race track insurance companies made the decision by tracks easy. Run non-wing cars, pay through the nose for track insurance. With the popularity of non-wing sprint cars are today and more and more tracks are hosting them, I don’t know how insurance companies are playing a part any more. I love non-wing sprint car racing and look forward to many more teams starting and events in the future.

 



     A lot of safety improvements have been made to sprint car racing since 1982. The non-wing cars are safer than they were in 1982 but still plenty dangerous. Until a local group started racing non-wing cars locally 6-8 years ago, I had forgotten what it was like to watch a sprint car back into the corners. (It looks awesome!)



StanM
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July 09, 2019 at 03:33:11 PM
Joined: 11/07/2006
Posts: 5581
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This message was edited on July 09, 2019 at 03:41:38 PM by StanM
Reply to:
Posted By: revjimk on July 09 2019 at 12:17:17 AM

I'm not really concerned about what they called 'em

But i think you get my point... winged circle track dirt car, right?



I went to my first races around 1960 and saw the Sprint Cars evolve from open cockpit with a roll bar behind the driver's head to what we have now.  Consquently I have approximately 59 years of watching open wheel racing under my belt.  "What they called 'em" had a direct bearing on what configuration they were running and where they would be legal to race.  If they'd have hauled the car to an IMCA Sprint Car race with the cage and wing they wouldn't have been allowed to race.  Case in point, the former Wagner car that my cousin bought was an open cockpit 1960's era Sprint Car with a roll hoop behind the driver's head.  He added a bolt on roll cage (common in those days) and run it (1) with a Speedway Motors body and alcohol carburator (2) as a "Super Sprint" with roll cage, wing and fuel injection.  Meanwhile his driver that he had after Richert had moved on wouldn't run a "Sprint Car" aka a car without a cage.  He would, however, race it with the body and carbs and with the roll cage and wing but he never drove a "Sprint Car" while he was active but we'd call that caged and winged version a Sprint Car today. 

These descriptions and changes mirrored the progression of roll cages and wings in the upper Midwest and our rules mirrored Knoxville.  Another example, when the WoO came about in 1978 they raced at North Starr Speedway just north of Minneapolis the next year in '79.  North Starr was a Sunday night track and had the Sunday night date before Husets took that night over so some Knoxville drivers would tow up here and run North Starr on Sunday.  North Star didn't go with the wings until Knoxville as everyone followed their lead in this area.  Roll cages became mandatory in the early 70's and wings about ten years later in the early 80's.

I'm guessing that you're located back east where I think the changes may not have coincided with the midwest.  Anyways, I'm not finding this on youtube or a google search, I'm commenting on changes I saw take place.  Cages came along when I was in my early 20's and wings when I was in my early 30's.  I saw it happen so I'm not going to get into a pissing match about the dates.

PS, after looking through the threads again I think the dispute is when were caged and winged cars referred to as Sprint Cars.  Wings and cages sprouted around the country in the Supermodified and Super Sprint ranks before those cars were considered Sprint Cars.  That seems to be causing some confusion among those who did not witness the evolution first hand.


Stan Meissner

revjimk
July 09, 2019 at 04:11:58 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7617
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Reply to:
Posted By: StanM on July 09 2019 at 03:33:11 PM

I went to my first races around 1960 and saw the Sprint Cars evolve from open cockpit with a roll bar behind the driver's head to what we have now.  Consquently I have approximately 59 years of watching open wheel racing under my belt.  "What they called 'em" had a direct bearing on what configuration they were running and where they would be legal to race.  If they'd have hauled the car to an IMCA Sprint Car race with the cage and wing they wouldn't have been allowed to race.  Case in point, the former Wagner car that my cousin bought was an open cockpit 1960's era Sprint Car with a roll hoop behind the driver's head.  He added a bolt on roll cage (common in those days) and run it (1) with a Speedway Motors body and alcohol carburator (2) as a "Super Sprint" with roll cage, wing and fuel injection.  Meanwhile his driver that he had after Richert had moved on wouldn't run a "Sprint Car" aka a car without a cage.  He would, however, race it with the body and carbs and with the roll cage and wing but he never drove a "Sprint Car" while he was active but we'd call that caged and winged version a Sprint Car today. 

These descriptions and changes mirrored the progression of roll cages and wings in the upper Midwest and our rules mirrored Knoxville.  Another example, when the WoO came about in 1978 they raced at North Starr Speedway just north of Minneapolis the next year in '79.  North Starr was a Sunday night track and had the Sunday night date before Husets took that night over so some Knoxville drivers would tow up here and run North Starr on Sunday.  North Star didn't go with the wings until Knoxville as everyone followed their lead in this area.  Roll cages became mandatory in the early 70's and wings about ten years later in the early 80's.

I'm guessing that you're located back east where I think the changes may not have coincided with the midwest.  Anyways, I'm not finding this on youtube or a google search, I'm commenting on changes I saw take place.  Cages came along when I was in my early 20's and wings when I was in my early 30's.  I saw it happen so I'm not going to get into a pissing match about the dates.

PS, after looking through the threads again I think the dispute is when were caged and winged cars referred to as Sprint Cars.  Wings and cages sprouted around the country in the Supermodified and Super Sprint ranks before those cars were considered Sprint Cars.  That seems to be causing some confusion among those who did not witness the evolution first hand.



I envy you for being around during that transitional period. I started watching dirt track "Jalopies & "modified coupes" in Virginia in the early 60s, we moved North in 1966 & i went to 2 races on pavement, lost all interest until i started going to sprint car races in Pennsyltucky in 2010.

And yes, pretty sure that transition was different in different parts of the country. If you ever go to EMMR museum in York Haven, Pa., you can see what they call "bugs" or "30x 90s", which I guess are similar (or the same?) as "supermodifieds". Doesn't seem like there was one clearly defined moment of transition




revjimk
July 09, 2019 at 04:15:56 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7617
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Posted By: Murphy on July 09 2019 at 10:13:35 AM

     A lot of safety improvements have been made to sprint car racing since 1982. The non-wing cars are safer than they were in 1982 but still plenty dangerous. Until a local group started racing non-wing cars locally 6-8 years ago, I had forgotten what it was like to watch a sprint car back into the corners. (It looks awesome!)



I know thats the idea, & I've seen Karl Kinser quoted on wings being safer, but it seems like recently there have been more deaths in winged cars... maybe thats because there are more of them?

I luv watching thise wingless cars "back it in" too! Smile



revjimk
July 09, 2019 at 04:19:16 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7617
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Posted By: RodinCanada on July 05 2019 at 10:19:27 PM

What is significant about a traditional sprint as they raced at Cedar Lake tonight? Are they something special or original that deems the title?



Some folks have given Rod a hard time about asking "stupid questions", but he certainly starts some interesting discussions!

Ask away, eh?





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