Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Time for Central Pa to get with the times, make the jump from 358 Sprints to the 360s

You could build a 358 for half the cost of a 360 before they opened up the engine rules. 10 3/4 compression, cheap heads, etc. A 360 may be cheaper than a 410 but it will never be as cheap as a 358 used to be. People were putting 358s together for under $10,000, running them all season and winning races with them. 360s are a headline class in their own right. If promoters want a second feeder class to fill the back gates around here, they either have to put the 358 rules back to the way they were or go to 305s. They need a cheap class. The 358s were a better deal than 305s because cubic inches are cheap horsepower and everyone likes to go faster just not at a cost. The 305s are slower. They did away with the 358 rules in the middle of a great recession and made the 410s cheaper to run with weight, tire and wing rules over the last 10 years. What did everyone think was going to happen when they drastically escalate costs in a feeder class that doesn't pay anything at a time where everyone else is cutting costs.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Many of the 358 motors at Lincoln cost less than 10K, or so I've been told...

Opinions may vary...

I would be in favor of sticking with 358s if they went back to the old rules and changed the wings. But, I don't see that happening.

Lincoln would have to lead the way in making changes as they carry the most clout with the 358's as proven by their car counts...

I recall them allowing the big wing as a test case last year and I believe they recieved some positive feedback from said test... 

Opinions may vary...

Or Von McGee type 4 cylinders if we want to really rock and roll. 

Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3 
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?

Get rid of the stupid wings. As proved last night, many 358 teams have a larger wing. 

I agree with getting rid of the wings. They look like something that should be on a space ship.

It's to late to change back to the " old " rules... the only way to stop costs from going up is a freeze on any new changes from here on out. The class will go away if you go back. I work on a Lincoln 358 team and here is why. Going back means every team can throw there blocks and heads away. They will be illegal now. And who can you sell them to ? NO ONE! So you can get about $15.00 in scrap steel price. So, going back have you saved the class from spending more money...NO... they can all go buy blocks and heads now. It's to late to put the lid back on, but you can stop taking it off any further ! 

As for the wings... another cost to the teams...who can we sell our wing inventory to so we can buy 5x5 wings? NO ONE AGAIN ! Maybe $25.00 in aluminum scrap... we're up to $40.00 for thousands of dollars investments.

Most 358 teams like us have aquired our inventory over many years. No way we " just replace it all" this off season to " go back"

Going to the 360 engines is also not happening. Why ? Do you really think Lincoln, the grove, etc.  Are going to start paying a 360 purse? Never gonna happen..PERIOD!!!

Do you really think they are gonna start paying us $2000 -$2500 to win and triple the total purse payout?  Or better yet just mandate the 360 engine rules and keep paying us $1000 to win...that should kill the class of for sure.

As for the 305 argument... drop the 358's and bring them in and save money on the purse payout don't you think Kreitzer and Loh have thought about that already ?  Ever wonder why they didn't already do it ? They bring lots of cars and you pay them school bus racing purse. Thats the exact reason they can't do it.  Everyone bitches about track conditions now. Go ahead and bring  40+ 305's every week with 5 heat races and 2 consi and get back to me on those track conditions. The biggest crying and whinning will be heard from your beloved 410 pit area!!! Then the fans. But mission accomplished. Better car counts, you wont have to look at those stupid wings and less payout should be a no brainer so why hasn't it happened ?

The class will rebound when the economy recovers..you need to ride it out. The 410 car counts are of from years ago also.

I remember about 10 years ago when we were in micros and Mike Dicely from Hyper pretty much tossed his 270 cars to the curb because the 600's were the future and the 270's were heading to the  extinction list. Guess what, they recovered in a huge way. Strong as ever and regularly see more 270 cars at the track than 600 cars.

JUST LET THE CLASS ALONE...NO MORE CHANGES !!!!

And Jeremy you are correct....it is time to get with the times ........... and get rid of the 410's and go 360's like 95% of the rest of the country. I could live with that. 360's and 305 feeder class. Keep the same purse and we would move up to the 360's

How about you do some research for us. Let us know how many dirt tracks in the US run sprint cars. Then how many are 410 or 360 cars. My guess is outside of PA you have maybe 7 tracks that run 410s weekly and 100s that run 360s

Lets get with the times....

Would be cheaper to go back to 358s the way they were than ahead to 360s.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

 " keep the same purse " as in the 410 purse being paid out know. 

I know Jim Harris is on here from time to time.  Jim did some fantastic work for the NSCHOF and if I recall, the number of 410 cars last year were about 725, 360's/358s=1650 and 305's about 800.  Obviously that is a constantly changing number as the 305's continue to be built.  The interesting/good part is that the 410 and 360 counts appear to be remaining somewhat constant, but the 305's are growing.  That means more people entering the sprint car ranks, which is good for all.

Hopefully Jim reads this email, or Bill W, and can add their info.

I will do some research on the 410/360 deal.

As for the 358s going back, good luck with that. I don't see the rules ever reverting back to the way they were. Remember, that would also be a cost to some teams. The 360 start-up is probably more, but in the long run — from what guys are telling me — it is cheaper.

I feel bad for the 358 teams, this is a change that should have been phased in 20 years ago.

The original premise of having a different wing for the 358's (and 360's) was quickly identified in most areas of the country as a "cost adder" instead of a "cost saver" as the only choice was to buy "new" whereas the 5 x 5 wings could be bought used from 410 teams (and in the midwest, the 5 x 5 wing was actually CHEAPER brand new than the 3 x 5 wing was).

Not sure there is a good answer to this debate at this point (there isn't anyone for the 358 teams to sell their used parts to).

Do 360's work in certain areas of the country?  Yep, but only as a headliner, not as a support division (even @ Knoxville, the 360's are a "Support Division" outside of 1 race per year (360 Nationals) and the purses aren't a lot greater than the 358's run for in PA ($1425 to win).

Doing away with 410's and going to just 360's for the 410 purse doesn't make sense either (every 410 team would basically go away as all their 410 motors would be scrap metal and they'd have to buy 360 engines that cost roughly the same amount as a new 410).

Are 305's the answer?  Doubtful IMO.  Good starter class where guys can purchase used cars, tires, wings, etc. and build a motor "cheaply" (probably close to that $10,000 mark the 358's were spending), but if you have the same tire, wing, etc. rules you make it easier for them to jump up a class as the only component you'd have to buy is the motor (everything else is exactly the same).

I'm sure the economy is a big part of the car count issue in PA (along with the big $$ team owners all going away over the last 10-25 years (Weikert, Dyer, Wintermeyer, Hamilton, Clemens (on to WoO), Jim & Sandy Kline, John Trone, etc., etc.)).  Those owners aren't coming back and the sport has gotten so expensive that drawing new owners to the sport is way harder than it was 20-25 years ago.  The teams in PA are becoming more "family teams" which is something that happened in the midwest in the late 1980's (I can only think of 2 or 3 "big time" team owners before then anyway).

Thirteen 360's at Selinsgrove last week fiftyfour 410's at Lincoln and Port combined. I must be missing something. 

Drop the 358/360's & run 305's instead...either way, they make a good time for a piss break.  

_

Yes you are missing something.....Lincolns 358 car count. If you are going to count Lincoln & port, for you 410 total then be fair and count Lincolns 31 358's with selinsgroves 13 for a total of 44. 

+1

A

A better idea would be to put the smaller wings on the 410's. Unhook these cars a little. Make the racing better and make the drivers skill a bigger part of the equation. The 410's are too locked down with the big wing; the lesser powered cars are even moreso. Super sportsmen run the smaller wings and no one complains about it. To change the 358's to the bigger wing and lock them down just beacause the off-set wings look funny, would be stupid. JMO

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