Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

So whats the incentive to qualify well at the Kings Royal, with an invert of 6?

They have an invert at Knoxville Nats too, but you get lots of points for fast qualifying

I don't get it... why even bother with qualifying?

Also, how do they determine where each heat race winner starts in the A?

Winner of heat:

1->6th

2->5th

3->4th

4->3rd

5->2nd

6->1st

2nd an 3rd place transfers are then straight up from heats 1-6.  That's Eldora's standard big event format, also used in the late models.  The Million did have a different format, though, with each feature transferer drawing their starting spot.  Wonder if that might become a new thing for the Royal?

Signature here.

Is there are reason why Heat 6 winner starts 1st? Does that heat have the faster qualifiers?

Non answer.  I asked for a reason

I looked it up again & tried to figure it out....looks like fastest qualifier overall goes to Heat 1, & the winner of that starts 6th in the A. Winner of heat 6 (slowest of top 6 qualifiers) gets to start 1st in the A

Looks like the slower qualifiers get rewarded all the way thru.... unless you don't make it thru your heat

WTF??? Why qualify fast?

Reversing the heat winners in the feature lineup is equivalent to a 6 car invert.  Think of a scenario where the fastest qualifier in each heat wins their heat.  That would put the 6th fastest qualifier on pole, and the quickest qualifier 6th.  So that part makes some sort of sense.

What I can't explain is the heat race inversion.  I don't know why they had 6 tonight.  I would assume that was decided long ago when there wouldn't have been knowledge of how fast the track would be all night, and for whatever reason was decided to be held firm tonight instead of adjusting to not punish the fast qualifiers so much.  They've used Eldora's Wheel of Misfortune to determine heat inverts before but for whatever reason did not tonight.  On a "normal" Eldora surface the 6 invert likely wouldn't have produced such straight-up heat results as tonight, but generally the quicker qualifiers still would have started mid-pack in the feature.  But that happens every year, and there are those that complain about it every year.  After the format success of the Million I wonder if you might see some changes to the Royal format going forward(?).

Signature here.

I agree. A big complaint on here is that there is no passing and all the fast cars start up front. This format and the format for the million require passing to get up front. They have been sand bagging for years in an attempt to qualify right around 30 to 36th in order to start up front in a heat. Heck Macedo did not elect to go out until 3/4 of the way through the order. It is all part of the unique method to make teams earn the big bucks. I love this and the format of the nationals. It makes drivers earn it.

All the cars are the same speed so the invert doesn't even matter. Somebody on here a few yeas ago recommended simply making  heats 4 laps to save fuel and tires because the winner has almost always already been determined anyway. The other suggestion was to have more cars, more laps and make them qualifiers instead. That way the leader has to deal with lapped traffic and pass somebody too. I like both ideas.

Agreed!

A

The invert is fine but you have to couple that with qualifying points or a wheel of misfortune to prevent sandbagging. There is literally no incentive to qualify well unless you're in the top 2. People who say there is no sandbagging or attempts to sandbag....Gravel the best qualifier in the world times 33rd, Macedo who was allowed to pick where he went out based on his win the night before goes out like 50th. In what other race would that happen? 

I hate inverts and Saturday made me hate them even more and made me thankful the Outlaws run the format that they do to determine a champion. Inverts had their place decades ago when the equipment was not as consistent and a wide range in how guy ran but today they make no sense. I think because the invert was around so long there is this illusion for some people that more passing happens than what it does and it doesn't. Since the Outlaws moved to their format you see on a consistent basis guys are able to move up through the field in the feature, heats on the other hand they are boring no matter what the format. Sometimes I think people would much rather have a good heat race vs a good feature and you are not. 8-10laps on a half mile, not going to ge a good race. 

Now granted I do like the Kings Royal as a stand alone 1 time format event, and I do like Knoxville because everytime you hit the track it counts (I am sure we are going to get "should the Nationals change the format" thread anyday now and NO they shouldn't), and the main goal is to get the best overall into the A. The Kings Royal however, a 36 car invert especially on a track like Saturday is a bit much. 24 might be a little more suitable and satisfy enough. When I looked in qualifying prior to Macedo going out  I think 3-4cars were in the 12.8sec, 12 were in the 12.9sec so about 15cars seperated by maybe a tenth, and maybe another 12 were in the 13.0se range. Right there is between 24-28cars that are seperated by a .1-.2secs and they are going to be starting 3rd-6th. No one is going to be moving or passing after the first 2 1/12 turns in that case unless the track slicks off and it never did. No invert in the world is going to make that exciting, it is just the illusion of excitment and the illusion that the fast cars have to "earn" there spot when they have already earned it. 

I know presenting a different opinion to a certain frequent poster is probably a lesson in futility but here goes. Here are the slowest cars from qualifiying. In my opinion, any of these except for a few could have won any heat if they got the jump from the pole. Almost NOBODY goes to this race unless they think they could win a heat.

Blake Hahn Sapulpa, OK 13.245

Jordan Ryan Castalia, OH 13.280

Conner Morrell Bradenton, FL 13.287

Cody Maroske Gold Coast, QLD 13.297

Bill Rose Plainfield, IN 13.315

Chris Windom Canton, IL 13.354

Greg Wilson Benton Ridge, OH 13.358

Michael Bauer Eighty-Four, PA 13.525

Frank Rodgers Lucas, IA 13.756

Ryan Myers Lewisburg OH 13.756

Bradley Ashford Wilmington, OH 13.756

With all due respect to this list of drivers, I think if they start on the front row 10 times, they're probably only going to win a King's Royal heat race once, maybe twice.  That being said, truly "special" non-points crown jewel type events like this, should be difficult to win.  It should require a driver and team to be consistently fast every time they're on the track.  Knoxville does a great job of that.  They're the gold standard in my opinion for what it's worth.  I think this year the racing surface at Eldora was just really tricky and different than any we've had all year.  It prevented some passing that in previous years we probably would've seen more of.  It is what it is, and next year could be completely different.  

That doesn't make sense. If all the cars are the same speed, pole position wins every time

I'm one of those people who has questioned the Knoxville format for years, but I agree on qualifying points. With an invert of 6, its necessary...otherwise it would pay to sandbag.

I think my gripe with Knoxville has been that TT points are twice as much as heat points. I thought they should be the same

But who knows? Unless you could start everyone side by side, no perfectly fair format is possible.

Keep the format the same as Earl had it, with an exception for an extremely wet track due to an act of God. In this unusual circumstance you scrap qualifying and have (6) 10 car heat races but start them in 2 rows of 5. Blind draw for starting position. 

Problem solved. 

I'd like the Nationals heat races extended to 12 laps. Keep the invert to 8. 

Keep It Real

Clean air is unfortunately everything in this sport now and most of those cars were only .4 off quick time. You may be right, most of those guys aren't really "winners" yet.

I could deal with 12 lap heats but go back to a full 10 car invert.