Never said that, never.... Jack was the best of those three by far in my opinion though. I've seen him without a wing at Manzy many times. Jesse Hocked runs the joint very much like he did, all out, no fear of that big 1/2 mile.. I saw Sammy go for some bad rides there and Kinsey did OK, but didn't do it often. Tony Berber? come on now. No offence but we have better drivers running 360's over this way and track champion doesn't mean wins, does it? Huntley ran plenty without a wing back in the eightys, it's not like he just showed up one day..LOL

Winged sprinters are just different, there a Modified, it's as simple as that. The Outlaw Show at Manzy for the fall was cancelled because we just don't show for it anymore. After the initial ooooh there fast, it's boring. We know what a good race is on a big 1/2 mile is and it's not the Outlaws.

Kenny

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

And I quote "There used to be some who could run both, you know who they are, but not today they couldn't, not this group, no way."

The drivers that I mentioned are all very much a part of the current group of winged racers. The car is not a modified, it is a winged sprint. A modified is a 3 wheeling piece of shit that allows late model fans to believe that they are watching open wheel racing. Lawrenceburg is very much in the heart of non wing sprint country so my assertion is more than valid. It's relevant.

Your distaste for the WoO is noted and the feeling is shared by many, including myself. However, do not make the mistake of believing that the WoO is a fair representation of the state of or quality of local winged sprint car racing in Ohio or PA. Our local shows are much better in quality and entertainment than any WoO race that I've seen since the 80's. That will easily remain unchanged until the powers that be decide to or are forced to adopt tire rules that will remove million dollar budgets from the equation.

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Right, and Huntley won the non-wing championship at Lawrenceburg more than 20 years ago in 86, not exactly recently my friend and I wish Jac would show up at the Western like before, he's one of my all time favourites but he doesen't run without that often anymore. Manzy is a very serious track for the 410's and Jac has taken some big rides there, with and without a wing.

Yes, a Modified, a super modified, but modified for sure. What do you call a midget with a wing? A modified Midget, right?

I don't have distaste for a winged modified sprint car, I, like others, just put it in it's own class and what's wrong with that? They have just high teched themselfs into bordom on some tracks. You guys can argue about what region has the best winged bunch etc, I think it's a good thing and I thought I made that clear. I spent some years up in the Pacific Northwest and the Saturday night winged and super mod shows were great at Skagit... They ran the track very very heavy in those days and it made for a good show. I think more than a few non-winged guys put on a wing and won the Dirt Cup, Lealand MacSpadden, on of my all time favorites comes to mind. I sure was glad to get back to non winged county though..LOL Yes, I did go to the slick 50 shows and taped them as well.

Kenny

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

I dunno, doesn't look like a sprint to me..............

...

You don't know what a super mod is do you? It's a wicked fast, big winged, open wheeled beast. This is one kind http://www.wssrl.com/ and in my opinion a winged sprinter is another. The fastes one to ever get around PIR, that's the Phoenix's one mile was a 159 average, nothing to sneeze at.

Supermodified Racing - Supers Secrets

Variety is one of the things that makes Supers so interesting. Note the visible differences in engine, chassis, suspension, and body configuration in this photo of Kelly Miller (No. 76) running side-by-side with Charlie Shultz (No. 7). Photo by Jim Feeny

Imagine a car with the speed of an Indy Car and the handling of a Midget. Imagine a car so fast in the corners that it'll try to suck your head off your shoulders. Imagine 847 hp dangling next to your left leg. Imagine no more. We are going to introduce you to one of the most exciting forms of circle track racing there is and take a look at the demographics and technical details of these wild race cars.

Welcome to the world of Supermodified racing, possibly the best kept secret in American motorsports. Fans of the Supermodifieds call them the ultimate short-track racing machines on the planet. They are viciously fast, handle like they're glued to the track, and deliver heart-stopping, edge-of-your-seat excitement.

Supers, as they are affectionately called, are largely home-built race cars with monster engines, different-sized tires, and mammoth wings on the top of the car. They are lightweight open-wheeled machines with tube frames scantily clad in aluminum bodywork. If we could picture Steve Kinser rear ending Michael Schumacher, that's a Super. Part Sprint car, part F-1 ride, the Super is a hybrid that sits a razor-thin 3 inches off the ground. In the hands of a capable driver, these cars can do things that a Nextel Cup car could only dream about.

Supers are raced primarily on short tracks under a mile in length. It's not uncommon to see a pack of winged Supers three and four abreast, darting in and out of traffic, and even changing lanes in the middle of the of the turns.

This view shows the low and left nature of the weight distribution of the Super. Bobby Santos III is getting a push at the start. Note that the wing covers up the 2500 Silverado push truck. You can also see the monster intake stacks on his offset engine. Photo by Jim Feeny

Coast To Coast

Supermodified racing is a cult phenomenon. It is club racing in one area of the country and a touring series in another. Bare-to-the-bones, big-block race cars on one coast, and highly tunable chassis with small-blocks on the other.

There are four sanctioning bodies putting on Supermodified events in the USA. The New York-based International SuperModified Association, or ISMA, is the largest of the four and a true touring series. In 2006, ISMA Supers will visit 12 tracks in 6 states and Canada during their 16-race schedule. Routinely packing the grandstands, it is not unusual for 30 cars to show up for the ISMA shows, which run from May to October.

ISMA's West Coast counterpart is the Western States Supermodified Racing League, or WSSRL. It is the youngest sanction and an outgrowth of the old Supermodified Racing League. This year, its first full year of competition, it will sanction 11 races at 6 tracks. Two smaller sanctions are the Colorado-based Englewood Supermodified Association (ESA), which puts on five races at two tracks, and the Midwest Supermodified Association (MSA), sanctioning 11 races in Ohio and Michigan.

The Most Outrageous Race Car

Not only is ISMA the biggest sanction, but it is also the home of the baddest of the bad. An ISMA Supermodified is unlike any other race car in the country. The first thing you'll notice about it is the wing. It resembles a Sprint car wing, with 24 square feet of surface area and multiple foils across the back. But any similarities to Sprinters end when the cars hit the track. The wing moves as the car is in motion. It lies flat when the car runs down the straightaway and then pops back up when the car races through the turns.

In these photos, we see the wing is at a high angle of attack entering the turns and lying flat on the straightaways. Photo by Jim Feeny

"It lets you get down the straightaway a lot faster," says veteran Supermodified racer Joey Payne, aka The Jersey Jet. "When you decelerate going into the corner, that's when it shoots back up. A lot of people think we have a control inside the car. That's the number-one question asked: 'How do you control that wing?"

Like everything on a Super, the wing is all about speed-drag reduction on the straights, increased traction in the turns. How the wing accomplishes this is painfully simple. A Super's wing is mounted onto air shocks that are bolted directly to the rear suspension, not the frame. There is a single air-filled cylinder that controls the amount of pressure inside the shocks

The amount of pressure controls the wing's distance of travel. The higher straightaway speeds cause more downforce, which compresses the shocks to lower the wing. Then, as the car slows going into the turns, the gas pressure pushes the rear of the wing back up.

"On a high-speed track like Thompson, we'll put around 150 pounds of air pressure in the cylinder. The goal is to have the wing come down just over center. That picks the back of the car up, taking all the drag off of the car," continues Payne.

Other than the monster wing on top, the most noticeable feature of a Supermodified is the engine placement. Hanging precariously on the left side of the car is a fuel-injected, methanol-burning 470ci Chevy big-block. These motors feature intake stacks that can be raised or lowered to fine-tune torque. Taller stacks equal more torque. On a short track, teams will run the taller stacks to gain more torque and better drive off the corners. The stacks will be lowered on bigger tracks, reducing torque and gaining straightaway speed.

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At a lot of the tracks on the west coast they ran a super mod division with the sprints. It had a square tail instead of the dove. They became very exotic in some places but most just disappeared. Some of the guys would put on a dove tail and be able to run with the unlimited sprints we ran for years over here. They were cool cars, Hank Arnald had one in Phoenix that he ran that's very famous, as a lot of you know it was called the twister.

Kenny

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

I live in north central Ohio about 50 miles south of sandusky speedway. I had an uncle that used to race with Todd Gibson at the Richwood fairgrounds on the old dirt track before Todd moved on to racing Super Modifieds. I also live very close to mansfield raceway where they have had super modifieds running a couple of times a year since they paved the place.

Let me clue you in on something, A SPRINT CAR IS NOT A MODIFIED, A SUPER MODIFIED AND SHOULD NEVER BE CONFUSED WITH ONE!

They race super modifieds at Oswego, New York. They take the wing off of them there. Do they call them sprint cars? NO! They call them super modifieds.

Furthermore, this forum is predominantly dirt oriented, therefore, I posted a picture of a dirt modified.

...

Very good, but when they put a wing on a sprint car they have modified it, right? It's a modified sprint car, period! and it should never be confused with a real "traditional" sprint car! It's also true that when they put a wing on a Midget it's called a modified midget, right again, right.. LOL At the time the modifieds ran at Manzy, Ascot, Skagit and the other tracks over here they were on dirt.

At a lot of the tracks on the west coast they ran a super mod division with the sprints. It had a square tail instead of the dove. They became very exotic in some places but most just disappeared. Some of the guys would put on a dove tail and be able to run with the unlimited sprints we ran for years over here. They were cool cars, Hank Arnald had one in Phoenix that he ran that's very famous, as a lot of you know it was called the twister.

Thanks for the fun and without name calling, good deal.

Kenny

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

http://www.hoseheadforums.com/forum.cfm?ThreadID=4763

Theres some "traditional" sprint cars for ya. If you think the current non wing sprints appear anything like that I'll chip in for your next visit to the eye doctor.

Putting wings on the cars is....GASP.......evolution. I know some of the bible thumpers around here don't like that word but I couldn't help myself.

...

I've been at the track all 60 of my years and I've seen some of those cars run, beautiful weren't they? Traditional cars all have one thing in common though, no wings.

My dad ran Indiana, Ohio, and Penn after the war, mostly Midgets. I'm a Hoosier by birth and I've often wondered what happened to screw up those other two states so much. I have a idea after reading some of the post's on here from the Pennsylvania guys what's wrong with them LOL but I still don't know what happened to Ohio.

Kenny

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

71 old buddy....

Please change the Laytonized to T-Bagged....

Gibson may have seen a few races....but his calls are rediculous at times. In the day, he would have gotten Laytonized in the booth for placing blame over a microphone. It may have been last year that he was spewing blame but seemed to miss some of the incidents that the visitors initated. Must be the rules of entertainment group.

Shame on you Freddy....

Enjoying weekly competitive 410 
racing from February to October at any one of 5 or 6 
tracks only 15 minutes to 1 hour from my soft bed..

yeah...not sure what was said in Floriduh on that hatchet job

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

ok, i have no favorite at all here. it seems to me both drivers can be said to have contributed to what happened along with hard racing. niether one gave up or backed down. they both stayed in the gas. fred in no way was on the very bottom as someone said. true he ran it in and slid up the track, but by the time he started sliding up he was totally commited and lifting would have sent him to his outside. his momentum was already dictating where he was going. staying on the gas was his only way of keeping the car turning. harrison never lifted either, and by the time he saw fred and prob'ly realized what was going on he had little time to react as he too was in a position where lifting would have really upset his car. it did look like harrison did get a bite and come down the track a bit. if he would have kept sliding fred would have prob'ly missed him. to the folks that said they saw harrison run over freds RR, how can you say anything as at the moment of contact there was a pole in the cameras line of sight blocking the view for that short time. i would have to call it hard racing between two guys not willing to give an inch. fred totally commited to the slide and harrison totally commited to driving hard around the outside. i think both guys were surprised as hell when they met up! that is just my view from the video.

i think that when they take the wing OFF they have modified a sprinter. lol. you guys are just being stubborn and arguing over apples and oranges. no one calls a winged sprinter a modified sprinter. and no respectible race fan would confuse a sprinter with a modified or super modified, wing or not. as a matter of fact the dirt mod pictured is basically a sprinter with a different body on it. oh, a non winged sprinter with a different body on it if we are going to be so p.c.

Yeah, I call those modifieds "wide bodied sprints" They don't have a wing on top, but they just reconfigure the "sheet metal" alluminum from the wing and fabricate it into the body. If you look at one of those modifieds from the front they have way more surface area to the on-comming wind than a sprinter with it's 25 square foot wing. Not unlike a LateModel or is that a "Super Late Model"? I love to watch them run as well.

Now a SUPER modified is a whole different story. Those things to start with run a bick block motor, run asphalt, and are their own beast. Great fun to watch. If they ran 'em every week at Sandusky I'd be there alot more often.

I wish they ran 'em on dirt!!

Oh yea, Original topic, (thats a novel idea) I'm a regular fan at Fremont where Harrison runs weekly, and to be honest, it looked like a hard racing deal to me. As much as I'd like to start pronouncing Fred Rahmer(pronounced Ramer) as RAMMER I can't do it on that video footage. Dave has been having a great year and it's a shame that it happened, but I'd bet he'll be the first to say it was a racing deal. Keep on the hammer and giver' hell Dave.

Where did fast Freddy finish the Featch anyhow?

Just wondering.

LaTeR

OK, I might have been yanking his chain a little with some of that LOL but trust me, I was there.. A lot of the guys called a sprinter with a wing a modified sprinter on the west coast in the beginning.. The same way they called a Midget with a wing a modified Midget, and they they still do. And as you should well know my friend there was a lot of derogatory things said about them for a long time and when the outlaws started running them full time if fit the "outlaw" image to do so because that was another non traditional thing to do. What was another non traditional thing to do, you ask? MODIFY them with a wing.

I figured as long as I was going to still call them modified sprinters, like in the old days, I might as well add "super" modified sprinters, because they are..LOL

Kenny

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

i still call a radious rod a wish bone some times. howard kaeding was the only one who knew what i was talking about the last time i was asking at bk's parts trailer for one at the track. he though it was really funny!