Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Hey Duane, I like you, and not trying to get on your bad side, but consider this; What If everyone started buying trophies and plaques from Mexico or overseas that only cost about 1/3 of what yours cost? Are YOU being paid too much for what you do, or is someone else doing it too cheaply? People always say the American worker is pricing themselves out of a job, but the people that say that aren't willing to take a pay cut either. I have yet to meet a guy that said "I wish I could work harder for less money".

www.Numbersusa.com  

I am not really voicing an opinion nearly as much as making an observation of history.

When I was in 3rd grade, my Father was making $18 per week as a Funeral Director.

With this salary, he owned a decent home, us kids ate well (which shows yet today), had a 2 year old Olds 98 convertible to drive.

With that being said, Mom was a stay at home mom, she sewed most of our clothes, could feed a family of five 3 meals with one "Old Hen" and still have enough left over to take to the church meeting.

I grew up well dressed in hand me downs, developed a good work ethic, and have never had to depend on a union to protect me.

Our problems in America are that we take many luxuries as a necessity, and are only happy when we are getting more.

In the 70's I predicted todays situation, I am sorry to see it.

BTW, in the trophy business, I have found it impossible to find any American make components, and now we are getting some Brazil made parts.

I don't follow Hawkers being jealous of what a CEO makes, as he is the one making the stock holders money, this is the job he was hired to do.

What was Lee Iaccoca worth when he saved Chrysler?

If not for the CEO they would have crashed the whole American economy.

I wish I could make big money, but with big money comes the extra car, the boat, the lake cabin ect and I would still be in debt and unhappy, and wonder why.

Thanks for your comments, and remember, my comments are based on being on the planet longer than you, and watching as things have evolved, just as you will in another 30 years.

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Andre, to me this issue has nothing to do with race or discrimination. It has to do with  domestic companies having foreign manufacturors COPY to the best of their ability products that are used in a high risk and TRADITIONAL American sport. Where does it end? Will Wesmar sooon be competing with China engine builders? The ISO certification means nothing at all, just a paper trail of mill test and inspection reports that can be compromised. (for those of us old enough, remember the Alaska pipeline weld x-ray scandle?) I understand that many on the board think that I am old school and they are correct. I havent owned a race car for over 20 years now but if I did, I would not knowingly use high risk chassis or parts made in China. And yes I do campaign against discrimination. I support any legal American regardless of color and especially those thats jobs are lost  because of this subject at hand. The foreigners and illegals, I could care less. If that means that I am hypocritical, then so be it.

Most parts for trophies and plaques are already imported

Duane, I can see that you are in my age bracket. I do like the XXX prices. Can remember when we ran sprints in the 80's at 3 tracks and actually broke even!!

Sprints rule

Cheroger - Hypocritical to say the least. You beleive in equallity for all as long as it is here in the US? Bigotry comes in many forms and you are exhibiting one of them. To say that the product being made and sold is dangerous based just on the nationality/race of the builder is racism pure and simple.

Those folks living in other countries are not living there illegally. No one said anything about supporting those in this country illegally. However by supporting Sprint Car racing you will be happy to know that you are indirectly supporting a few folks that are here illegally and I am sure they thank you. If you buy vegatibles rather than grow your own, several more "illegals" thank you. If your dairy products come from California, they say thank you again. If you shop in buildings built around the country by the major construction firms.... well you know. I often wonder who would do all the work if the millions of "illegals" were booted out of the country. Or more importantly who could afford those products when the legals took those jobs formed a union and demanded $20 per hour.

I also wonder what the true cost of products would be if we only allowed the raw materials for production across our borders. No imported finished products.

As was said before, we are entering a Global Economy. Eventually the playing field will level itself out. Until then, those of us in the US can either enjoy ourselves the fruits of being the first there (economically) or we can just sit back and pay double or triple for the same product while struggling to make ends meet. Maybe once the political powers that be change we can ask for subsidies to buy American.

John, I may be hypocritical by some peoples standards and that's fine with me. But actually, I do have compassion for that foreign worker that has replaced one of our own. Ours, generally works for a wage that supports his family and has decent working conditions. (he may not be Union but because of the Union he has these conditions) What about that foreign worker? Deplorable conditions, slave wages and what we term, "sweat shop conditions" that we have even passed laws against this kind of treatment in this country. For you or other Americans to support this immoral, deplorable and inhuman treatment of humans is beyond reason....What's the old saying, "out of sign, out of mind?".....I guess slavery is still acceptable to many Americans as long as we don't have to see it first hand and as long as it saves us money?? How pathetic! Now who is hypocritical?

Oh, and where did I say their product was dangerous?

Cheroger-

Please elaborate on the Alaskan Pipeline Weld X-Ray scandal- what was it, and how does it apply to the sprint car components produced today and the product testing that has been posted.

And why would you say Triple X Race Co Chassis are unsafe? Have you spoken with a driver who wrecked in one?

Cheroger - You are correct. You did not say they were dangerous in this thread. You did say - I would not knowingly use high risk chassis or parts made in China Why not? Please clarify.

The ISO certification means nothing at all, just a paper trail of mill test and inspection reports that can be compromised Why would this matter? They are an equivilant product just as safe as anything built in the US right?

What about that foreign worker? Deplorable conditions, slave wages and what we term, "sweat shop conditions" that we have even passed laws against this kind of treatment in this country. Have you been to China? They are currently enjoying a higher standard of living than ever before. So are many other third world countries. Their labor base and economy is at now what ours was about 40-50 years ago. As their purchasing power increases so will supply and demand in those countries. Wages will follow as will working conditions and ......... a World Economy. Not hypocritical at all. In fact Hypocrasy is the act of condemning another person, where the stated basis for the criticism is the breach of a rule which also applies to the critic and of which the critic is in breach to a similar or greater extent. You called yourself a hypocrit. I just backed you up by pointing out that most of your commodities grown or raised here in the US employ migrant workers from foreign countries. What I did say was that you were exhibiting traits of a bigot. A person intolerent of a lifestyle or identity different from their own.

I support a world economy. Not sure how that equates to supporting slavery or inhumane conditions but I have non the less decided. You apparently have not decided. Your first post said - The foreigners and illegals, I could care less. If that means that I am hypocritical, then so be it. Second post: I do have compassion for that foreign worker that has replaced one of our own Take a stand and stay with it.

When I started in the military I had to do latrine duty (clean sh** splatter on the toilets) and 24 years later when I retired I was telling others to do it. Everyone has to start somewhere. See where those countries are in 24 years.

High risk chassis or parts Cheroger? If you hit a wall at 80+ mph I dont care what chassis or parts you run,many things are going to break.Laws of physics dont care where the parts are made or by whom.Please come and look at my car if im racing in your area and show me what parts are high risk and I will stop using them immediatly.

All fun all the time
markpace31.com

You ask that I reply so here it is. First your second paragraph. Where did I say in this post or any previous post that xxx are unsafe?? I agree that it may be implied but I never said that. What I have said in numerous post is that ISO certification does not assure quality in materials or workmanship. I am of the opinion that our longtime U.S chassis and component builders, because of liability considerations, are more likely to assure the quality of their products than a foreign supplier, regardless of the foreign suppliers ISO certifications. That leads me to the Alaskan Pipeline scandal and how, (at least how), I apply it to this issue.

One or more of the companies responsible for the weld quality ( X-Ray, non destructive testing) assurance, used x-ray pictures of the same acceptable welds repeatedly and presented them as approved pictures for thousands of welds that had never been x-rayed. (gee, now here's more corporate greed) Regardless of the quality procedures that were to be followed, this compromise of these procedures happened. This condition almost went uncovered regardless of hold points or controls. When it was discovered, the cost to reconcile was extremely costly. The point I wish to make here is that if this type of breach can happen with American companies, it can damn sure happen with foreign, regardless of ISO certifications.

Another example of inferior China products happened in the power industry around 10-20 years ago during the boom period of construction of gas turbine fired boilers. Somehow a China valve manufacturer had supposedly met the specification conditions and received approval for use of their gate valves in high pressure piping systems. Money saved here, right? Well they started failing, causing injury to maintenance workers and millions of dollars to replace. They were even refered to as "China Valves". Most, if not all have now been replaced.

To sum up,....There is no guarantee that the China made products are what they claim to be or are what they are presented to be. AND, the same is the case with Maxim, Avenger, J&J etc. However, If given the choice, I will buy from those companies that have done the research and development, stateside testing and support the sport and employ americans and not from a company that copies our traditional designs and the profits go to the Communist! Regardlessof price.

From Kevin Eckert that seems timely .. http://www.openwheeltimes.com/owt_Editorial.asp?id=112

A week ago, Chappell and Ray Brooks (his list of tracks would dwarf both drivers) brought the first XXX chassis to the World of Outlaws. XXX has pushed the hot button topic of out-sourcing to the sprint car world. Because its components are manufactured in China, XXX sells for much less than the products of those who have ruled the American market. Accusations were hurled disparaging its quality in the hope that a safety scare might stop sales. It has not worked. Brooks brought a metallurgist to test XXX integrity to flying colors. And furthermore, Brooks and Chappell missed three straight transfers but since the switch, have made three straight.

"Accusations were hurled disparaging its quality in the hope that a safety scare might stop sales." ... hmmmm, does this remind us of anybody on this board?

Out of everyone making negative comments about the risk of running XXX components, how many own or race their own sprint car? Im not going to get into the economics or social impacts. I brought this up in my economics class and my sociology class, and the arguments it brought on makes message board fighting seem tame. But as far as what I perosnally have experienced, and what my friends have experienced, one of the major complaints with some (not all) of the popular american made companies has been workmanship. I have some xxx small parts, but not a chassis, so i have no info to base an opinion, but with some of the other brands of cars I used to run the welds were very ugly, certain mounting points on the car were far enough off that they needed to be cut off and corrected, and everytime I broke one of those cars, it broke at the welds. Go to the races, look where many of these american made cars are snapping apart at, right beside the weld because they are building them so fast they are welding them too hot and weakening the material next to weld, amking it brittle, so instead of the cars bending more, they are snapping and creating spears of chromoly that you hope dont hit you. Its this reason that I cant join the people who are attacking the XXX company based off their loyalty to american workmanship, because alot of the time, it sucks. plain and simple. Not to say that I dont wish we could buy good parts cheaper and keep the money here, but a lot of american sprint component and chassis companies have done their fair share to drive customers elsewhere, inclusing overseas. Just my experiences and opinions, thanks.

Actually, the old saying is "out of SIGHT, out of mind".

Fenders are like vacuums... they both suck.

Your correct, rebel. Thats what I meant to type, must have had a pre-senior moment. The airlines don't give senior discounts until age 65 and I'm not quite there yet.

I feel the XXX chassis is just as good as the three leading manufactures, althought I dont currently own a XXX chassis, I do run thier bolt on items, all of which have not failed ,the price of the XXX items appeals more to the weekend warrior, Im a blue collar racer and money means everything! , weather you like it or not? the chassis Is not the largest fraction in sprint car racing and is disposable. your abillity to "lock the car down" and have a driver with brains, tallent,and skill will pevail! (unless your driving a tin lizzy with three bad plugs) your proubly gonna race respectably with a XXX chassis and parts, as for the level of product XXX offers ? just remember your safety goes well past the welds of a car, to sum up racing, look at it this way Money =horsepower brains=fast ! JMO

I agree with the statements about ISO certification. People fly that flag like its the greatest thing since a pocket on a shirt. The company I work for is ISO certed and it means that all work stations have instructions for both quality and performance. Doesn't mean a thing if management doesn't give you the tools to make it happen. Paperwork is hastily filled out before inspection time and operators are versed in the proper way to talk to inspectors. About outsourcing off shore. I managed my company's south of the border plant for a while and naturally it was all dollar driven. Most companies are now owned by larger holding companies whose only mission is to turn a quarterly profit for the stockholders. There were times in Mexico where I had to lay off many folks just so my labor costs would be down so I could make my quarterly program. While I was there I saw several US companies move out because of quality or other issues. Sometimes this outsourcing bites them in the butt. We still have plants down south, but because of delivery and quality issues this has adversly affected our customer base. What goes around comes around.

This topic has turned into a political discussion, and there are key facts that some of you people seem to be forgetting. First off, to make a argument about the quality of the chassis is one thing, as it is welded by one or several individuals, thus allowing for human error. But 75% of the parts on a sprint car are cut out of billet stock aluminum, which is done by a C.N.C. machine, not a person. To make a argument that a part cut from a C.N.C program is better because it was cut on U.S. soil is ridicules. To add to this debate is the fact that several U.S. manufactures are cutting these US parts with a machine that was either built buy, or contains parts from A FOREIGN MANUFACTURER. If you don’t like the parts don’t buy them, but they seem to be working just fine for Lasoski, and Tatnell, and they put the product through the most rigoress test that it can go through.

what I find ironic is this: these chassis are being SOLD for less than american chassis........but I bet the owners or whatever of XXX are making A LOT MORE. Damn staright those chinamen doin the work aren't exactly the pick of the litter. That is where I would say it could be unsafe. But ALL that purchase the product are aware of the risk.......so it's not a problem for the entire sport......if even a problem at all. For a lot of teams that are runnin on a limited budget, these chassis....or better yet the cost......come as a great help to them. Until there are effects felt from this.......like a failure that leads to a serious or fatal injury.......no one will bother to seriously consider not runnin XXX. And that is probably the way it should be......if their chassis hold up just as well as american ones and at the same time is cheaper, then more power to em.

I see what cheroger is tryin to say.....and kinda agree. But at the same time........I think it's a way too late in the game for ANY american to cry foul against corporations and how they give out "american" jobs. Americans asked for this.......and are gettin it. When we choose to elect leaders that raise HUNDREDS of millions of dollars.......mostly from those same large dirty corporations.........well, we can't have our cake and eat it too. We made an easy transition from citizens to consumers a LONG time ago.

Race teams are only having to spend more and more......so maybe it's a good thing XXX provides them with the chance to save some $$. It's good for race teams........not so good for under paid china man. The real money maker in the end of this would be whoever owns XXX.

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

XXX donated tons of stuff for our year end banquet and no drivers seemed to upset when they had to take home hundreds of dollars of parts for free.Dont remember anything from other companies.