Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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Weren't redraws only invented to keep Steve from winning every race every year?  Now that competition is closer, probably should do away with it.

Brandon McLain
United Sprint Car Series Driver
2014 Season
National Rookie of the Year!
National Points - 8th
Southern Points - 3rd
Asphalt Points - 3rd
18 Races, 3 Top 5's, 14 Top 10's

From the perspective of a racer, what would be an equitable way to set up the line-up for a sprint car feature race that would be entertaining for the fans and make the racer want to come back next time?

Inverts were in existance since the 50s that I am aware of. fast guys always hated it

For me the incentive is points.  In a championship season if one guy averages 5th best time throughout the year and another guy averages 8th best time throughout the year.  Assuming there's a 2 point differential between positions in a 50 race season, that's a 300 point advantage.  I've gotta be honest though I don't know how the WOO point system works anymore but I'm assuming it's pretty close to the Wednesday and Thursday nights of the Knoxville Nationals.  In that case you could have a guy who doesn't even make the A main score more points than the feature winner (it's rare but totally possible).  So yes in that case timing fast gives you a distinct advantage even if you might end up starting further back some nights.

For your second question of why should you tell your driver to be fast.  Just looking at the results for Wednesday night of the nationals this year.  David Gravel set quick time with 15.468 which "penalized" him the 8th starting spot in the first heat.  Brady Bacon qualified 36th with a time of 16.145 which "gifted him the pole position that he didn't earn".  I didn't see this race, I'm just going off of the results but Gravel crashed though it says he was making progress.  Brady Bacon "unfairly won that race" and with his good fortunes of timing in 36th and then winning his heat race, he was rewarded with the 16th starting position in the A feature.  Again looking at the results only because I didn't see this race, David Gravel crashed in his heat race and finished last, started on the pole of the C main and won, started 21st in the B main and finished 11th.  Well Brady Bacon qualified 36th, won his heat and then finished 12th in the A feature.  Just looking at those results it looks like Bacon had a WAY better night than Gravel but when all was said and done Gravel's point total at the end of the night 403 and Bacon's is 408.  So IF you're a car owner by all means, tell your driver to slow down .65 seconds in time trials on a track like Knoxville so you can get that huge advantage of starting up front in your heat.  And then you better hope that nobody else has the same idea.  Honestly I kind of like the idea, it wouldn't hurt the show one bit.  As a fan are you going to notice if someone is going 1/2 second slower in qualifying?  Is that any worse than a guy riding in his position and not trying to race the guy in front of him because he's already got his transfer spot?

I know we disagree on this and I think this is why.  We view the importance of time trials different.  I'll be honest, I hate the whole idea of time trials but it is what it is.  The way I view a WOO event is there's three races or events that set the lineup for the feature, time trials, heats and the dash.  I guess the dash is the be all end all for the lineup of the feature but I guess I don't think time trials should carry the majority of the weight for lining up the event.  I'm guessing you view time trials as kind of seeding the competition and it being a major factor in who should win the feature?  But in the days when I really followed the WOO it was a huge luck of the draw with the earlier you timed, the faster you were.  Also there used to be guys who were really good at time trials but it didn't necessarily mean they were better racers.  Steve Kinser didn't set a lot of fast times but he was there when it counted.  As I've said before, I wish they would get rid of time trials because I think it creates a false sense of entitlement.

So, you bash those not wanting inverts as having small minds, but then in your final sentence you outline why inverts, in reality, won't work properly in today's winged 410 racing.   

For the most part, everyone has kept it civilized, which is why I enjoy this forum more than the Facebook pages.

A couple of thoughts:

I don't have a problem with inverts as long as there is an incentive to go fast when the cars hit the track. Right now, there's no incentive for that in a lot of cases if inverts are involved.  (see the joke known as the King's Royal qualifying system)   So, some of you have some great ideas.  Points for qualifying.  Points for heat race finish.  Etc, etc. 

 I'm hoping by "points" we are talking about points for the evening and not series points, correct?  Much like the Knoxville Nationals points system to determine starting order on Saturday?  I like this system the best of all formats in racing.  Everyone gets the best of both worlds. Cars are inverted based on qualifying time.  You MUST qualify fast----your goal is to start on row 4 of the heat.  You MUST try to gain every spot possible in the heat races.  And finally, you MUST try to gain every position possible during your preliminary feature.  As much as everyone loves this format, as I do, I still heard nothing but non-stop bitching and whining at the actual event about Larson/Rico front row.  Comments like "it's like giving them the race" or "make them earn it."  ????  Isn't that what they did in the prelim night running the inverts? 

I hope when some aren't referring to "points" as giving championship points to drivers for qualifying and heat finishes and then inverting them in the feature too.  Everyone complains about having to sit in the stands and watch a follow the leader race where the fastest car wins wire to wire.  How can that possibly be worst than watching the 12th fastest car of the night run away with a feature wire to wire, while the 4 quickest cars run from 12th to 8th?   Stupid in my opinion.  They're not getting to the front guys.  The 12th place car is not much slower than the 1st and 2nd place car and in most cases, being as it's a sprint, the race will be over before anyone can run them down. 

I know some think this will "shake it's way out" during the season, and yes it will.  But, the Outlaws and HL series should not be about watching middle of the road cars being given a chance to win because of handicapping.  It should be about beating the best.

Once again, some want to claim a race is boring if won from the front 2 rows.  In the same breath, they refer back to Kinser running through a field of 305's and 360's as exciting.  Personally, I find Donny Schatz win in the 2013 Nationals from the B-main to be far more of an accomplishment than Wolfgang running from the D to the A in 1990.  JMO though.  

A Knoxville Nationals(-ish) format each night. (not exactly the same, but the same concept) Points for qualifying.  8-car invert for heats.  Points for heat finish.  Points for passing in heats.  No transfer spots-----just points!!!   For instance, winning your heat with the 24th fastest time doesn't "earn" you an A-main spot unless your points add up to an A-main starting spot.  Line up features straight up on points or do a mini invert of 4 or 6 if that makes everyone happy.   Tah-dah!!!!!   Best of both worlds.  All of the invert groupies get to see inverted races in the heats.  People like me who like to see drivers rewarded for their performance, are rewarded by getting the correct spots in the feature event.  

What happens come dash time ? Drivers pull pills,  they make these races 8 laps,  if guys don't get good starts they pretty much get in whichever line in the fastest and hold there position.  They have no traffic to slow the front runners down.  The dash just gives guys the opportunity to make final adjustments on the cars. That alone is unfair to the cars that made the feature thru there heat race.

Raise the purse on the dash. 

Make it 15 laps, with  pill draws for all cars that qualified in there heat. 

Where you finish is your starting spot in the feature. 

I would say the incentive to run fast is to make the invert in the first place. It means you're starting somewhere near the front. The differences in qualifying are so small nowadays, it's tough to risk sandbagging. If you try it you might miss the invert and start behind those cars. A small invert works in my opinion.

People like to bring up the Kings Royal format, but lets be honest that's an extreme example. No one else does a 36 car invert for TT. I'm not really a fan of this race's format. Scale of 1-10? I give it a 3.

I like the PA Speedweek format. The fast timer for each heat starts 4th. The second fastest guy starts 1st, third fastest guy starts 2nd, and fourth fastest starts 3rd. If the fastest guy who was "penalized" simply maintains his position he makes the dash with the heat winner. If he drives forward and wins? He's the only guy to make the dash.

The invert draw for the A is usually between 8-10 guys depending on car count. You end up still starting towards the front and providing a good balance for racers as well as fans. 

I love it.  My only tweak would be that maybe an 8 car invert for the heats might be a little aggressive, I would go with a 6 car invert for the heats on a "normal" racing night.  I personally don't like time trials but if they had to stay, this is a great way.  I would rather combine the time trials and heats for the starting lineup of the feature and not make time trials weigh more in the lineup.  What I really like about this though is passing points in heats, this answers your dilemna about penalizing guys who are fast, they have the potential to gain more points than people starting in front of them.  I REALLY love having no transfer spots.  I have seen too many heat races where a driver will ride in their position because it doesn't do them any good to pass the car in front of them, so why take the chance of wrecking a car by racing someone?  I've heard a story about the 1958 NFL Championship game, which went into overtime.  The Colts got the ball first in OT and in the huddle someone asked Johnny Unitas what the rules were to win the game and his response was "I have no idea but if we're going to win this, we need to go down and score, that's all we can do".  I heard another fan say that passing points make it difficult for the fans to follow.  But honestly I think that's ok.  I would rather a racer know if he wants the best starting position he needs to finish as high as possible.  And honestly I really don't think an invert is necessary for the feature.  Like I've said before, if the track is decent, I think anyone in the first three rows can win the race, even further back if they nail the setup better than anyone else and get some timely cautions.  On top of that we've seen some entertaining features with the current format.  My only issue is making the rest of the night more entertaining.

As others have said maybe a points system that includes qualifying and heat points. Every position is worth a point? Hard to do on a one night show but could be done. 30 cars, qualifying points go down by one per position. Heats completely inverted and each position is worth a point. Slower qualifier wins the heat after qualifying bad maybe that moves him into the feature? Maybe fast qualifyer runs 8th and he missed the invert. Mid pack qualifyer wins the heat and makes the dash? Mid pack qualifyer finishes 8th and missed the feature? Guess simulations would have to be run. Best solution is to un-hook the cars so they actually can pass but that will never happen. 

I completely agree with your last sentence.

I do not l;ike WOO starting fast TT on pole for heat races.  They win 95% of races and often by 2 seconds over 2 nd place.  Give them more points for the TT and invert first 2 rows.  If they are so fast, maybe they can pass someomne.  All they have to do is get 2 nd place from outside second row to make dash.

Have seen plenty of side by side racing and passing with the Outlaws format since they did away with the invert. It has basically proven inverts are not needed. There have been countless battles for position involving multiple cars, last lap passes for the win, close finishes, and guys coming from the back. The only reason people don't like it is the illusion that the inverts make things more exciting. They don't. They are stupid.

You bought a little race car and now you are against inverts. Inverts can and have made racing exciting in all kinds of racing divisions. Racing will always be about catching and passing cars, 

I will say this. WoO wants to protect there teams that follow the series. TT's in a sense do just that, even with the pts system in place. Sure you get the occasional team that fell on bad luck, but it's the same thing over and over, the fast guys are usually up front. I say you totally eliminate TT's, give all cars 2 hot lap sessions in reverse order due to track conditions. Make those sessions 8 to 10 laps, then maybe you mite see some passing in the feature. I also feel all woo features should be 40 laps. Then set ups come into play because you have to save those tires for the end of the race. You rarely see that anymore. The funny part about this, all have some good idea's, It's NEVER going to change, carry on.

You're 100% correct, it is about protecting the teams.  I don't blame the WOO for this either (lets face it it's not just the WOO who protect their top stars, EVERY racing series does this in one way or another), it's not a good look for the WOO if their drivers aren't constantly up front.  If they are consistently getting their asses kicked by the locals, what would be the hype with seeing the WOO?  The casual fan might say "Why should I spend $40 on a ticket when next week I can spend $20 on a ticket and see the same winner?"  Also you could have WOO teams saying "WTF?  I've spent half a million dollars on wrecked race cars because I'm starting behind people who shouldn't be in a road car, this doesn't make sense to run with the WOO anymore."  I get why it's the way it is but that doesn't change the fact that before the A feature, it's a pretty boring event.

Take the top wing off and you're likely to have a race with a winner from deeper in the field

I'd like to agreee with you but in today's non wing world there are not that many winners coming from deeper in the fields (except Larson) due to the cars being so evenly matched. We'll never see the wings go away but how about making them smaller. You still can have the rollover protection of the wing but it doesn't need to be so damn big. I find it interesting that when a track gets slick and the wing speed goes away thats when you see who knows how to drive a car and set up a car. Of course if the wings get smaller there will prpbably be no more new track records which is obviously important to someone other than me.

Well with your first point you once again prove what happens to people when they assume. I was against inverts and thought they were stupid long before I bought a little racecar,  which I don't drive by the way. I never understood inverts to begin with and when WoO went away from them in either 16 or 17 I was saying then that the racing was better.  Didn't get that little car until 21. And racing and any other form of competition is about 1 thing and 1 thing only, winning. Sure somethings can be fun, and there can be lessons taught and possibly some entertainment value but it is and should be about winning.  And the winner should be the best or the best should at least have the best shot at winning. Plus races with inverts have not shown me that they are anymore exciting than without and all you have to do is watch. It's a stupid made up illusion that people have etched in their brains that someone coming from the rear wins and it hardly happens. It's great when it does but it doesn't happen on a consistent basis. No one will ever convince me otherwise that the invert is the equivalent of coming in at halftime and saying,  "hey we know you're up by 21pts but, we need to make this game exciting for the people who paid to come here. And that poor team, they can't help that they are undersized, stupidly coach, and aren't as good as you but darn it they should have a chance of winning too. So we're going to put them ahead by 14pts but you scored 21 so just do what you have been doing and you should still win but at least this will entertain those idiots in the stands who know nothing about the sport." The invert is just 1 move away from basically giving everyone trophies