Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Posted on SCRA FAN

Sounds like good news for the 360 drivers!

I still won't buy a ticket until they put 410's under the hoods!!!!!!!!!!!!

Former Owner/President of FAST and Black Swamp Media
Group. Currently just another fan in the stands.

i'm looking forward to it. not every sprint car driver can afford a 410. and it should be great racing. i can't wait to see who runs the whole schedule.

We may see some drivers taking their 410's out and replacing them with 360's.

From my point of view, I think that this will have the same effect on 360's nationally as the WoO had when it first appeared. Before the WoO, you had varied types of sprinters aroung the country; various engines such as big blocks, various wing sizes, and other individualities in each region. After a few years of the WoO, there were no more big blocks(Ted got tired of seeing his guys beat in Central PA), standardized wings, and the gradual migration of the car to the standardized car that we have today.

The ASCS 360 will, IMO, eventually force all series and tracks that run 360's to migrate to the ASCS rules package. Why? The competitors will demand that their local track allow ASCS heads and the like to allow rhem to "compete" legally with the travelling ASCS cars. While there are only minor variations in 360's across the country, there are enough that some cars are not ASCS legal now.

An example? Well, if the WoO decided to limit the RR wheel size to 15X16, instead of the now legal 15X18, series around the country would likely follow their lead, to allow their competitors to familiarize themselves with the wheel and its affects to a car's handling and setup. Ridiculous, you say? Well, those tracks/series that are running "open" sprint cars have a 410 c.i. limit - just like the Outlaws.

So is this homogenization of 360's a good thing or a bad thing" Well, it's a good thing for the guy that sells the ASCS heads - he'll get a check for every car that changes to them. But it may be bad for the teams that currently do not run ASCS "legal", since they'll be spending $$. But they'd be spending $$ anyway when they freshened their motors, so...

So, it may be a good thing - a national sponsor, a guaranteed point fund, an opportunity for a traveling 360 series. But it kind of takes away the original reason for 360's, doesn't it? 360's were meant to be a lower cost alternative to 410's.... but any motor builder will tell you that there isn't much difference in th cost of a good 360 vs a good 410.

Me? I'm going to wait and see....

Chuck.....

sprinter25;

I agreed with everything you said until the last comment. "any motor builder will tell you that there isn't much difference in the cost of a good 360 vs a good 410." I totally disagree with this statement. I have raced and owned both engine types and the 360 is far cheaper to maintain. While I agree, to a certain point, that some teams are spending big bucks on the initial cost of their 360 package (I've heard $25k to $30k for a new Wesmar these days), it's the maintenance of a 360 that saves $ vs. the 410.

I fully expect this announcement to get the attention of a few struggling 410 teams. However, we all went through a very similar announcement 3 years ago with ASCS...remember the news...guaranteed points fund, $5k to win and $500 to start A mains. About 5 races into the season the sponsorship either fell apart or it never materialized and purses were immediately cut for the National ASCS. I truly hope this news has a more solid footing than the press release 3 years ago did.

I'm a fan of ASCS and Emmit Hahn, I truly hope this is the boost that he needs to thrust 360 racing into the national limelight!

lead...

Thanks for the feedback, the other issue that I see is that 360's will become more expensive, too. DO you remember when a good 410 cost $25K and lasted 12-15 shows before freshening? It's just evolution that drove the price to the $35-40K range for a 6 race motor. And I believe that 360's will follow the same pattern. While I'm guessing, I'll bet that a 360 cost about $18-20K five years ago; I have to believe that now that 360 costs $25K.

And what will fans pay to watch 360's race? I don't know that they'll support a 360 show that charges 410 prices, if they even go.....Like I said, I'm gonna watch......

Chuck.....

You bring up 2 good points to ponder sprinter25. I too would not be surprised to see the evolution of the 360 become what you described, and that would be a travesty. It will be interesting to see if promoters charge higher ticket prices to pay for the higher purse or if ASCS absorbes it with the new sponsorship package? Like you say - I'm gonna watch and see how this plays out...

I'm not too concerned about the ticket prices. From what I understand, the unexpected phenomenon that the Chili Bowl has become is helping Hahn pay the bills for the ASCS.

Obviously, the price tag on fuel 6 months from now could... sheesh, what am I saying "could".... WILL have an impact on current prices. At least, I think they would?

Make a deal with ya, ASCS... go to the Sprint Bandit format for every event and I'll pay more for the tickets. I'd much rather pay $30 for 4 heats, 4 qualifiers, 2 B-Mains, and an A-Main in ASCS over 3 heats, 1 dash, 1 B-Main, and 1 A-main with the WoO.

The engine size is going backwards and the price will only increase.

The smaller the cubic inches the more RPM is needed to produce HP.

Pretty soon the 360's will be spinning 10,000rpm and costing more than a 410.

The real answer is 600 cubic inch motors with an rpm limit and a compression limit. Still have 900+hp and would probably last 30+ races

In order for a traveling 360 series to dominantly survive the appearances made throught out its traveling schedual need to target tracks not currently holding a sprint related class of cars, IMO this is just speculation , and mild observation, but, a problem could exhist with a watered down class of cars ,that would appear at a sprint hosting track weekly who will pay to see 360's when they can see the top of the heap 410's for the same dough today tommarrow whenever,admission needs to be taylored , sorry just the facts , 410's are still the premier in my book , and if you happen to catch a list of hero 410 drivers at your 360 event ? well than? lucky you! I love 360's, and a few good topics are brought up here , I applaude any efforts to make things grow, but, Isnt a 360 suppose to be the affordable alternative?

Your close.

Run whatcha brung engines....no limits whatsoever. No fuel limits either. Keep the current wing rules. But put them on bricks. And by bricks, I'm saying that the SC25 would be the softest tire choice. Then they would only need to come up with a brick for a LR. The only other real rule limit would be a minimum tubing wall thickness for the cage bars at .125 and the top rails at .095 and the bottom rails at .083.

Member of this message board since 1997

and you are in an ever SHRINKING minority there buddy. an opinion that works only for those in 410 country - which is down to what? Ohio and PA?

i think this is an awesome deal ----- worthy of all fans support!

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

i love what you said at the end - we suffer through the hall of fame promoter lanny edwards every week at SFS - who seems to have drifted into sinility in many many many ways. but what is pertinent to this - he charged 20 bucks to see ascs national tour this year - and ran only 2 support classes - the mods and factory stocks. lanny's poor use of a rulebook (which is none) - allowed the factory to dwindle badly we have about 10 of em now - the mods are still good bout 20 of em. but ascs only brought about 25. wander why I say only? - we get about 45-50 360 sprints here weekly - they aren't ascs - they run slightly less power and smaller wings - but honestly the RACING is WAY better. and then we were charged double to see what even the ignorant could tell was only half the quality of out weekly show. we were basically paying double to watch jason johnson and gary wright turn fast laps without passing anyone. they couldnt pass - the track would be WAY WAY WAY too heavy and rutted. kinda like tonight was here at OKC. it was like a cross of the everglades and grand canyon - truly.

i love ascs. its what we have down here - i prefer 360's because the racing is usually better and i dont like paying just for big names - i;ve liked the sooner region for a long time. what has hurt ascs here around OKC is not ASCS - but Lanny Edwards. he just doesnt put a good show together when they come through. ascs knows it - may 9th was prob the worst show i ever saw at OKC - with Emmet and lanny being such good buds - emmet should bitch slap lanny for lanny makin his series look bad. ascs is a great series with great drivers and they have great races. but i agree in every way they should run 2 sets of heats. but they wont - because its one more time the car hits the track (TIRES, fuel, more laps on motor). personally - i'm fine with em doing it as they do now - but its up to the local track promoter to put together a good card of support classes because that really does help to justify the double ticket prices. many folks here in OKC dont look forward to ascs nat. at all now - because you know what you will get - half the cars as normal, an absolutely horrible tacky track with NO passing at all - and double ticket prices. i'd just like to see ascs shows at OKC be good again - not from ascs - they do all they can - but our local promoter - who most have come to despise.

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

Cheers!

OKC, I think you vastly underestimate the appeal 410 racing still has throughout the country. Look at the last two weekends. The 410 Nationals pay 15 times what the 360 Nationals pay. A $10,000 to win 410 race turns no one's head. A $10,000 to win 360 show is billed as one of the top two or three 360 races in America. If Knoxville didn't run their weekly 410 show along with the 360 Nationals, how many fans would even be there to see what is one of the top five 360 shows in the country? Kinda looks like Swamp's opinion works in places other than Pa and Ohio.

Ohio, PA, Iowa, South Dakota, Indianna, Missouri, Washington and California all with regular 410 shows and I'm sure that I'm leaving some out. Also, aren't some of the aussies moving to 410's? I can't speak for other areas of the country but, here in Ohio(where Swamp also resides), 410's = our best local drivers. All the drivers aspire to "move up" to them even if their hopes are to just run locally. Our fan base has supported this for several years and you must understand the culture, not attack it. If fan support in other areas of the country was as supportive as is it is in these "hotspots", then there would be no debate about the pro's and con's of the different divisions.

...

Powerslave, I find myself agreeing with you most of the time you post on here. I believe you are completely on the money here.