Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

You are trying to define the interest in the two divisions by comparing the biggest event in both divisions... not too fair considering the 410 Nationals is historically the biggest event in all of dirt track racing. Bottom line is the 360 division is experiencing an amazing growth spurt that can only help both divisions of racing.

I have no doubts that the appeal for 410 racing is as strong in the Oklahoma region as it is in the PA/OH area's, but in complete support of OKC's debate, the majority of sprint car fans in the Oklahoma region are less willing to pay $40 to watch time trials, 3 heat races, 1 dash, 1 B-Main (maybe), and an A-Main when you can go watch the ASCS for $20 and get 5 heats, 1 dash, 2 B-Mains, and an A-Main. You are basicly paying to see bigger names take home more money; the ASCS puts a very impressive product on the track and "seems" to be a lot more competitive racing throughout the night.

There is no doubt in my mind that the appeal for the 360 division is growing across the nation... Hahn wound't be putting all of this effort into a loosing fight.

As for "If Knoxville didn't run their weekly 410 show along with the 360 Nationals, how many fans would even be there to see what is one of the top five 360 shows in the country?" I seriously do not believe for one second the crowd for the 360 nationals is built off the 410 weekly program. There is no question that it is supported by the 10 days of Iowa Speedweek, but take the 410 weekly show out of Saturday night and the same "growing" crowd will continue to watch the 360 Nationals.

On a side note, I have heard the crowds for the 410 qualifying nights were less than impressive this year.

Have you noticed the difference in the March ASCS National show compared to the May & June shows? There is no way I could be convinced that folks here in OKC don't look forward to the ASCS events; the March crowd is always great and the car count reaches 45+. The ticket price is still very reasonable at SFS when the ASCS comes into town; the car count at SFS for the ASCS events typically pretty solid.

I agree that Lanny is unquestionably the problem. They have got to find a way to get the May/June ASCS car count up to the March car count OR improve the support classes for the May/June show... especially the May show (that one always struggles). The June speedweek is typically a solid show.

Two years ago the ASCS ran the sprint bandit format for the ASCS national show in March @ SFS. The show was $20 and the crowd was treated to 6 heat races, 6 qualifying races, 3 B-Mains, and an A-Main. To this day, it was the best racing for price paid that I have spent to see a show. The ASCS can run this format... if they can maintain prices then I would believe they would draw more fans to their shows.

On a side note, I am not a mod fan, but have really come to enjoy watching them at SFS... they put on a good show there.

When Tulsa speedway was around and under good promotorship the 410's were a great class in Oklahoma. To get into Tulsa for a weekly show was not very bad either. They had a good car count and good amount of fans.

One of the reasons that was discussed long time ago that Hahn got the 360's was at the time the 410 prices were crazy. Be what it may. But also at this time he was running Creek County speedway too and they did not have a sprint class. Creek was running on Sat nights as well as the cross town Tulsa speedway.

I like the 410's and the 360's. If I had my choice I would go with the 410's but that is just me. The NCRA 410's put on as good as show as any of the other series and the ticker prices were pretty resonable.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands 
in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he 
stands at times of challenge and controversy." 
Martin Luther King, Jr. 

Erich Petersen 

To reply to my own post lol. There are 305 sprint classes in Texas and Kansas and if I beleive the reason they got started was because of the price of the 360's. The Texas and Kansas series are getting some decent car counts. Even next year Oklahoma will have a NCRA 305 class.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands 
in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he 
stands at times of challenge and controversy." 
Martin Luther King, Jr. 

Erich Petersen 

MSU, we never pay that much to see a 410 show around here. A regular show at attica for example is only a $14 adult ticket. For that $14 we get 20-30 410's, 20-30 305's, 20-30 late models and some dirt trucks which has become what our street stock division used to be. Allstar shows are around $20-$25 to get in and a WoO show will run ya about $30-$35.

...

Power I think when Tulsa was running the 410's it was in the 8 to 12 buck range to get in. That would get you 410's and 360 and somthing else I forgot.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands 
in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he 
stands at times of challenge and controversy." 
Martin Luther King, Jr. 

Erich Petersen 

That is great and all, but I am curious of how many tracks have that quality of a car count for 410 sprints outside of that region.... I believe that was the original argument of the topic. I can completely understand how 410 appeal and support would be so high in a region where 20-30 410 sprints run regular shows. That sounds like an excellent supporting show as well!

We haven't had a 410 show in Oklahoma in quite a while.... the last one I remember was at Outlaw Motor Speedway in Muskogee and had a $40 price tag on it with about 29 cars showing up for the event. The crowd was decent, but nothing like what I have seen for the ASCS events at State Fair Speedway. The 410 appeal is alive in this region, but I believe this regions fans are going to be more apt. to pay $20 for a large ASCS show instead of $35 for a small WoO show.

msu I hate to agree with you. I am from Okc and I am at the fairgrounds every weekend. If the WOO came to town eventhough the tickets would run quite a bit I bet you would see a very good crowd in the stands.

The reason Lanny said he does not bring the Woo to town is b/c of the promotors fee, at least that is what he said a few years ago. He thinks he can not make enough money at the front gate to make up for what he has to pay to get them in.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands 
in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he 
stands at times of challenge and controversy." 
Martin Luther King, Jr. 

Erich Petersen 

The last 2-3 crowds for WoO shows were very disappointing compared to what I seen from the ASCS crowd the past 2-3 March shows. Just my opinion. I would agree there is a lot of appeal for 410 sprints down here, but I just know what I have witnessed from the past crowds in Oklahoma for WoO events.

I had heard the same info concerning the promotor fee.

I dont disagree with you about the differance in the crowds but I think if the outlwas would show up one weekend you would be surprised in the numbers.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands 
in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he 
stands at times of challenge and controversy." 
Martin Luther King, Jr. 

Erich Petersen 

If your area had local 410 racing I believe that your views would be different. In the areas that there is local 410 racing, there is an attitude of us against them when the outlaws come to town. There is no better hype machine than a rivalry and that is why you see so much discussion about the posse on this board. Your interests are geared towards the 360's because that is what's going on in your local scene. 360's simply are not the top tier in the regions that I mentioned earlier so you must understand why it wouldn't be supported in those areas.

...

The last time Lanny Edwards had the World of Outlaws at the Devil's Bowl he advertised (yes - he did advertise) retro tickets, or however it was called.  I believe he charged about $22 or $25 at the most for general admission.  At this same time Texas Motor Speedway was charging more like $35 for a World of Outlaws show.   The turn out was not that good.  I would say maybe the stands were 2/3rds filled - if that much.  Very disappointing.   I wasn't going to go out until I heard about his price break, and I figured if he was trying to help I would support him.  As he said - it just isn't the good ole days with the top drivers pulling the folks in... as in Opperman, Wolfgang, Ferkel, Bobby Allen, etc.   He's up to $25 for an ASCoT show here.  I hate it - but I prefer the 360's - at least in this area.  But, in the past - I have driven right past a WoO show to go 300 miles for a 360 show - called the Short Track Nationals.   No comparison in the 2 shows.  Y'all in sprint car country - I hope you really appreciate what you have.  If it weren't for Cowtown Speedway there would be no place for good 360 sprint racing in North Texas (maybe Texas) anymore.   On a regular Sat. night show the Devil's Bowl gets from 9 to 12 sprints - of whatever weird rules Lanny has now for them.

Hea power I have to agree with you on this point. Granted I do not know how old my okc buddies are but I do remember one race in particular. This is when Okc was still running the 1/2 mile instead of our 3/8's now. Anyhow Donnie Crawford was killing the outlaw guys one Sat night. The crowd went nuts. He did not win the race but yet he had the crowd behind him. It was the best race I ever saw from an underdog that I ever saw at the farigrounds in okc. He had them shaking in their boots.

I am not sure about this one but I think Danny Wood won a prelem race at Okc in a 410. You shoud of seen the crowd as he came off of four. Everyone was on their feet clapping him toward the finish. It was like all homecomings of all homecomings.

I guess I am in a minority here in Okc regarding 410's b/c that is what i was brought up arond. aAt the time I ws thinking about racing it was not 360's but it was 410's. I do not fault my Okc buddies but they might have been around when 410's were the thing in Oklahoma. We all know that oklahoma had some bad a** 410 drivers and I am not talking about Neighbors.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands 
in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he 
stands at times of challenge and controversy." 
Martin Luther King, Jr. 

Erich Petersen 

You really seriously need to re-read my post... I agreed with your comments 100%. I still agree with the one you have posted here, but look at the reverse of the comment you have made. Your view would be different if the 410's did not run weekly events there and the 360's were the top tier regular show. Now, back to my main argument:

How many tracks are running a weekly 410 program of 20-40 cars?

Is that number more than the number of tracks running a weekly 360 program of 20-40 cars?

I know the appeal for the 360 division is growing every year... the ASCS is proving that on a yearly basis. I believe the appeal of the 410 division is still strong, but I do believe it is at a stalemate or dwindling as more tracks are dropping the 410's for the 360's.

The key part of that is just that it has been a long time since the 410's were the thing in Oklahoma and the price & car count just isn't quite what it was back then.

Again, I don't believe you are in the minority at all...I still believe the appeal is big here... I have no doubt about that. Look at the big names we have ties to: Shane Stewart, Daryn Pittman, Stevie Smith, even Danny Lasoski & Tyler Walker. But this region proved with the past few WoO events that our local drivers are not going to spend to money to give the fan a 35+ car count and the crowd is not going to pay $35-$40 to watch the event.

The price tag has got to go down or the car count must go up.

I guess I was being to vague. What I meant to say is that the people in your area would feel more enthusiastic about about a 410 show rather than a 360 show if 410's were part of your local shows. You had mentioned attendance being low for WoO shows ect ect.

I find no fault in people being into 360's at all. Personally, I think they all need more stringent tire rules to remove the motor from the equation and improve the racing. This is most evident on larger tracks and the primary reason why I chose to skip the kings royal this year. Not to mention that I'm about to go back to college and I'm completely broke right now lol........

As someone else said before, remove the cubic inch limit, make the tires hard as bricks and limit the wing size and we'll see the sport grow again.

...

sorry ya'll. i dont mean to underscore the 410's. and yes they generally have better drivers. i'm only saying that the RACING is not THAT much better than the 360's. it really isnt.

the statement that i should understand it and not attack - is perfect and correct in every way. sorry - i dont mean to attack it - prob just more attacking those who think that it is leaps and bounds 100-1 better than 360's. i want the 410's to remain doing well - i dont want 360's to do well AT THE COST of 410's. but no doubt there are certain folks who see it as a threat - and i am not talkin bout fans. i just hope a power struggle of sorts doesnt ensue - even though i think it may have already behind the scenes.

guess i'm kind of like everyone else - except that i prefer 360's over 410's. i want to see both do extremely well - and not schedule against each other and stuff like that. yeah i know that goes for guys like Hahn as much as it does for guys like Webb and other 410 folks.

to avoid another novel. powerslave i completely agree with you in every way. i hope 410's continue to do well in their areas - and develop new ones. i hope the same for 360's. more than anything i just hope all those who run the tracks and series in both 360's and 410's start working together. and make sprint car racing better. i think we need a lot of unity and cooperation to deal with some of the issues the sport will almost surely face in the future. gas prices and the already steep price of racing. sure it has and always will be expensive - but i think the # of youngsters getting into year by year are actually going down. i hope that somehow both types of cars become more affordable and reasonable. otherwise this wont matter - the 305's will be the biggest in the nation. the gas prices is a situation that is out sprint car racings control. SCR is doing ok now - but the future looks extremely bleak in this regard. especially if offshore drilling becomes the chosen answer by voters - and if voters dont press both political parties to actually solve the problem - not just appear to for political benefit and pandering. if offshore drilling - which will do next to noithing to lessen gas prices - if folks keep believing that is the answer - we are screwed. not just sprint car racing - but us too. funny how legislation keeps trying to get passed by dems to address the price gouging by stations - and reps keep doing filibusters and voting against it. funny if gas down 20% - the prices dont go down 20% - they go down like 5%.

who can right now say sprint car racing will even be ok? it would be extremely smart to figure out something else to power these cars. would it even be possible at all?

good god I am on a roll aint I. not really intending to turn this into a political post. but funny how that 1 issue holds means everything not just to us - but the sport we all love. again powerslave - you are right. sorry i rub off to be preaching down on the 410's. i dont mean to or think that way. i'm just tired of the notion that the 410's are so much more superior to the 360's. they arent - they just faster and better drivers (usually). but those things do not EVER mean it is necessarily better racing. just becasuse i know the sat of the 360 nat's were better than tonight finale of the 410 nationals ------- doesnt mean i think tonights 410 finale sucked. i'm just saying that for 3 straight years ------ the 360 nationals were just as good as the 410 nationals. but with the arcane and outdated thought that faster automatically meand better racing - - - the 360 nat's dont get near the support of the 410 nat's. although this year's attendance did shorten up the attendance gap. which was amazing and astounding considering belleville ran same nights - and the allstars went right after it running at tracks in the immediate vicinity. i saw on the all star website them talkin bout their husets race on that sunday - talkin bout lack of 410 racing in the area. LOL. for 1 - there was no lack of AWESOME SPRINT CAR RACING IN THE AREA - and 2 - there wasnt even really a lack of 410 racing in the area. sat at knox, mon. at osky - and then wed. thru sat. 410 nat's. that is 6 nights of winged 410 racing - in an 8 night span. sound like shortage? lol. it just pisses me off - no one runs 360 or 410's against the Knoxville 410 nationals - and i dont think anyone should run either class against the Knoxville 360 Nationals. there are tons of weekends where the midwest has nothing outside of local shows -------- if the allstars really want to do something good ----- run 1 of those weekends - so that midwest sprint car fans have 1 more weekend of great racing. if they did that ------ I;d probably even go if they did it south of belleville - like wichita.

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

That's just as much the choice of the track promotor as it is the allstars. Infact, I would venture to say that it's more of a choice of the track promotor than it is anything else. Also, you mention gas prices. Look at it this way, the allstars and the track promotors know that there will be plenty of 410's in the area around this time. The majority of the allstar teams are from the ohio area. Do you ask these teams to travel out to the midwest area twice a year or do it all in one shot when most of them are going to be heading to Iowa one way or the other regardless? I shudder to think about the overall added expense of making them do it twice. Please keep in mind, the allstars are filled with teams running on the same budget that teams in other areas might be using to run locally. Some have more and some have less but most of them don't have the cash flow that most of the WoO teams have.

The truth about the allstars is that they have to do it when they can. They don't have the power to dictate schedules to tracks like the WoO has, or atleast had at one time.

...

I guess the thing I question is when ASCS tried this several years ago the real difficulty was getting tracks to commit to the series. With such a high purse it is tough for a track to take a gamble. I wonder if ASCS is going to take some of that sponsorship money to help the promoters take a show. Plus the other down size was the majority of the races were in the traditional ASCS National area OK, TX, MO, etc. which made it tough for anyone outside of that area to support the series. Face it there are very few 360 drivers or teams doing this full time. Majority have a 40 hour work week and race for fun.

You could say the ASCS Regional areas should be the focus to bring the series too but I can tell you in MI for the ASCS SOD area there is only probaby one track that SOD runs at that could take the gamble on that high of a purse. The majority of the tracks complain about the cost of the a ASCS Regional show even though SOD brings in the biggest crowds of the year for all the tracks they run at.

I think another thing I wish I would have heard is they were going to pump some money into the Regional Series. Maybe guarantee 5k to win the points in each region.

Guess just have to wait to see what details come out in the future on this series.

I can't believe that Katich hasn't thrown his spin in on this subject.

Sweeton