Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Sorry folks, this is still bugging me. In an incomplete/unscientific survey of WoO, All Stars, and local results, it appears that races are won from the pole about 80% of the time - maybe more. Maybe it's been like that for a long time and it has just started to bug me - I don't know.

What I do know is, as per another thread, it's making it easier to stay home and I don't like that one bit.

(X) driver passing 15 cars is neat except they don't past the most important one. 

If I was new to the sport and you took me to a few races, I'd wonder what all the fuss is about.

Actually, I'm far from new and  I'm starting to wonder that myself.

And the late model guys tell me they are the same way.

Have you been to a Dirt Late Model race lately? If you think it is bad for sprint cars, it is far worse in the dirt late model world, largely due to the formats. At least most sprint car races have some sort of invert, be it in the heat races or features. Dirt late models.....not so much. The national tour drivers even compain about using a passing point format. But use Saturday night at Lincoln Speedway for example. If you looked at the results, you would say Ryan Smith won from the pole and it must have been a boring race. Far from it, as I would rank the feature in my top 5 races of the year at Lincoln. Smith and Dietrich duked it out for half the race. Got my monies worth and came away smiling after the feature.

Sorry, but I don't agree with your assessment, or numbers.

1.  WoO alone---about 2/3 of races this year won from front row and less than 1/2 of those from pole.  Not anywhere near 80% won from pole.  

2.  This is nothing new----has been like this for decades.  

3.  As previous poster points out, many races won from the pole are fantastic races up front.  Many times the pole-sitter will drop back 2, 3 or 4 spots before gathering it back up and charging to the front.  I've been to a lot of races, and when I read the box-score the next day, if I hadn't been there, I would have assumed the race was garbage.  Many times, this is not the case.  

4.  I watched late-models and mods a lot before becoming primarily a winged-sprint fan.  The racing in those ranks is very similar on many nights.  Sure, there are great ones, but many times they are won from the front row as well.  

5.  As stated in another thread, we tend to latch onto a few great events in the past and think that is how the old days always were.  This is not the case.  Sure, Kinser, Sammy and Wolfgang may have stormed through the field many times, but how many times did one of those 3 start front row and blister the field?  Hundreds of times would be the answer to that question.   Yet, no one complains about that and we pretend it never happened.  

My wife and I were laughing this weekend about the older generation's views of millenials.  They are viewed as people that have to be constantly entertained and have no patience.  Yet, we sit in a restaurant Saturday night full of people of all age groups, out having a good time.   It was a long wait for our food and who was complaining about the service throughout the restaurant?  Not tables full of millenials, but tables full of the folks my age and older.  Who's complaining on Hoseheads about not being constantly entertained?  Mostly the older generation--my age and older.  So, I guess bring your phone to the races and play a video game or something if this doesn't do it for you anymore.  ??????  

In my 30 or so years of following racing, 60% of the races are just average, 20% are terrible, and 20% are great.  And, those numbers have not changed one bit in those 30 years.  And that applies to all forms of racing I've been to.  

This is completely false... Someone else posted the following numbers in another thread you started:

"According to my count:

1. There have been 63 features run up to this point in the season

2. 22 of the winners have come from the pole----making winning from the pole still an "infrequent event"

3. 16 of the winners have come from outside pole----making winning from the front row a "frequent event" as 38 of the 63 features have been won from 1st or 2nd."

This was for WoO features in 2019.... 35% won from the pole. Far from the 80% you falsely claimed. Meanwhile 60% have been won from the front row.  Considering the guys starting on the front row have the advantage of clean air and the fact they only have to pass the car starting along side of them on the initial start... its suprising these guys are still losing 40% of the time. But for whatever reason you can go ahead and keep pushing the narrative that there isn't passing in sprint car racing.

I posted this one.  I have to correct the post I made on THIS thread-----I was not correct on less than 1/2 the front row winners being pole winners.  I had it flip-flopped.

However, thanks for finding this----I couldn't find it 

I don’t support the original post’s premise that dirt racing isn’t what it used to be....

BUT it does seem at least the last few months we’ve seen some snoozers, even Knoxville this year to me was in my top 5 worst (it still was awesome, that’s just because they’ve set the bar incredibly high)

Part of this I think is because Schatz is mediocre this year, he’s usually good for a couple 12th to 1st, 19th to 2nd runs that remind you of what’s possible in a sprint car. Larson was also a little mediocre this year and he’s usually good for an incredible run every year or so. 

The other factor was the really lousy car counts once the Outlaws left Knoxville, normally the west coAst provides some good racing but not as much this year. 

Of the 5 WoO and 11 Allstar races run thus far in posse land, 10 were won from the pole, 2 from the outside pole, 1 from 3rd, and 1 from 4th. The other 2 races were won from 7th (Reutzel at Port Royal) and 8th (Dewease at Port Royal). Guess these stats support the argument that a bunch of races are won from the front row and that perhaps the best racing in central Pa this year was at Port.

Thank you! Agree on all points. 10 years ago people gripped consistently about front row winners all the time and there was a 16 car invert which is plenty. As I said in a previous post there was complaining about sandbagging, front row winners, etc. 

Front row winners are nothing new to the Outlaws or even locally. People just see the optics of no invert, front row winner, and assume bad race. This is still competition & the competition for position has been as good as it has been in over a decade or more. I think it is all the older folks who want things to be like the 70, 80, or 90s and the cars aren't like that anymore. Brad Doty even said in the 80s someone may have had a 410 but the HP was equal to a 305. That difference in HP doesn't exist anymore and things are more equal than ever. 

Thanks for not thinking millennials are not the decline of society or racing. I go to races and 99% of the time have fun. Then get on here or Facebook and see someone probably mid 40s and older talk about crappy track conditions, slow lap times, front row winner, double file restarts, young driver disrespectful, issues with a series format, issue with a series, ticket prices, ticket prices of a series, concession prices, the winner used profanity in victory lane, all of which are followed by the common back in my day walking up hill both ways 30miles to school in a snow storm story. It's not 1985 anymore it's 2019 almost 2020 & things are better than what some of the older ones think. 

Should we expect another new thread next week when it is still "bugging" you

I don't understand the allure of seeing a guy with 150 more hp rip through the field. 

About your millenials response:

I'm 46 and my wife turns 50 next week.  One thing about the times?  The more they change, the more they stay the same. 

1.  Most of my friends were lazy.  A few of us liked to work hard.  That was 30-35 years ago.

2.  Most of my friends were disrespectful jerks to their elders.   A few of us were not.  That was 30-35 years ago.

3.  All of my friends, and myself, used to play a SHITLOAD of video games.  That was 30-35 years ago.   (I didn't get to play as much as my friends because I was slopping hogs and picking corn----but I still did)

4.  I have a friend who spouts off about Colin Kapernick on Facebook.  But I remember clearly---like it was yesterday---a veteran running up to him and knocking the hat off his head during the National Anthem at a basketball game in high school.  I also remember him chewing the veteran out.  That was 30-35 years ago.  Now, this guy is a champion for respect of veterans and does nothing but bash the disrespectful youth of today.  Double-tongue.  

I have not forgotten what it is like to be young.  Our generation had less technology, and the generation before even less than that.  However, we all have our hard workers and lazies, respectful and disrespectful, liberals and conservatives, etc, etc, etc.  Just a change of scenery but the same characters occupying the set!

Absolutely. I turned 33 this year but get pumped into the millennial category for some reason. My friends & I played video games & played outside. We have always held the door for the people behind us no matter who it is. We played sports growing up and never got a participation trophy or loser trophy. Couple of my buddies quit football junior year but it wasn't because they said they would rather go to work & make money rather than have a middle aged man scream at them about missing a block living their glory days through us. 

I think as you said every generation has the same characters. It's just now with forums, comment sections, and social media we can now see everyones opinion. They have always been there but just in our own minds or in our tiny inner circle. In all actuality if this board or Facebook existed in 1985 the same complaining would have taken place by just a different group of people. People always say more people are offended today than ever which I don't think is true. People have been offended since humans have existed, now you just have a place to write your thoughts for everyone to see

I don't care if the cars in the front row win all the time.  I just love watching these rediculously fast and light cars fly around the track. Easily the most powerful circle track race cars on the planet.  

Lawlessness + liberalism = HELL -  NYC, Detroit, Chicago, 
Seattle, LA  Who the H runs those cities. 

Common complaint, right?  I'm a fan of inverts. Worried about sandbagging? Do away with qualifying altogether & select starting grids at random, or invert based on season points

"X) driver passing 15 cars is neat except they don't past the most important one"?.... Come on... since you've been watching so long, you should know thats what makes a lot of racing interesting, battles back in the field 

Sounds like you're just getting burnt out on it... take a break & just go to a few select shows... or maybe wingless on bullrings????

I don't know who you are but I think we would get along very well lol.  As I was reading through the first post, I was thinking about my reply, then I saw your first reply was exactly what I was going to say lol.  And this post, I have always thought the exact same thing.  There were assholes when I was young and there are still assholes today.

However I understand where the original poster is coming from (kind of).  When you go to the races there is a ton of down time, and when you think about it, there might be 30 minutes of green flag racing, that takes 3-5 hours to get through.  And for a lot of people, they hate the down time, so they turn to their phones.  The biggest difference I see today is people have a hard time having a conversation when there is really nothing to talk about.

So people today (has nothing to do with age as nobody seems to be patient anymore) may not like the idea of a night at the races, where you sit there for the majority of the time with nothing happening. 

Stop the presses! You mean to tell me the drivers with the best starting positions, and an advantage over the rest of the field, win the most? Absolutely earth shattering.

I agree that many can't stand the downtime. 

I must be a complete weirdo or something.............I love a long night at the track, relaxing and having a few beers, chatting with friends I only see sporadically during the year.  I just love the relaxation in between races and some really good conversation.  Yes, I also will look at my phone, but spend most of my time taking it all in.  

Throw in a rain chance, then I want them to get the show on the road!!! 

This just happened this year Kingpin!  Every single race from 1960-2018 was won from at least 18th!  Look it up---Fact!  And, the race was full of constant lead changes while waiting for the winner to reach the front.  Man I long for those days again.  You remember back in the 80's when there were 20 cars in the field that could win and Outlaw race?  It wasn't just a couple of guys dominating night in and night out.  Doesn't anyone remember 1987?  The close battle right down to the finish with wins spread throughout the entire field?  Boy, I sit and dream for those days to come back.  

(and for those who didn't pass the 8th grade, that was sarcasm)

remember back in the day the four fastet went to the back...way back in the day, bring it back i say...

Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...

I remember when I was a kid, it was a foregone conclusion that almost every week at Williams Grove and Lincoln, Fast Freddie would start 12th, storm through the field, take the lead from Len Thompson or Dave Haight on lap 13-15 and drive away from the field to win by a straightaway. That was as every bit as predictable as watching someone start on the front row and drive off. I saw one post elude to Lance winning from 8th at Port. That wasn't an exciting race that night as far as I'm concerned. He passed everyone like they were sitting still on a slow black and slick track then ran off and hid. Yeah he did some passing but was there really any suspense? Not exactly. It was pretty apparent by lap 5 that the 69K was going to dominate. A "good" race is in the eye of the beholder. Some people like passing, some like speed, some like back and forth competition. Me personally, I found it more exciting watching Brad Sweet and Donny Schatz playing cat and mouse with each other through traffic Saturday night at Lernerville than watching Lance pass 10 cars in 12 laps and destroy the field. 

Dammit man ..!! Lets just invert the entire field for the main and let em eat ..!! At the end, give everyone a participation trophy and a juice box ..!!

The whole point of racing is to be faster than the rest and beat them all to the checkers. The format for the Outlaws rewards the fast cars in the heats, where the Allstars punish theirs. Still the drivers and crews must be spot on or damn near close to have a shot at starting in a position that gives them the best chance at winning. 

 Of course, I like to see passing and cars moving through the field, but not as much as I like to see the guys running up front navigate through the back of the field while battling for the lead ..!! That’s where the action is ..!!

To me, the pole setter has the most pressure on him as well as a bullseye on his back and I love it ..!! As long as it’s not a rubber down track of follow the leader I’m good ….