Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Not sure if I would be a fan of doing away with qualifying altogether and selecting starting grids based on a pill draw. Makes the race less legitimate and more of a gimmick. Since this is about the WoO and they are basically the biggest professional organization in our form of motorsports, I think there is a need for the qualifying. Really the qualifying portion for the Outlaws does not last that long. Couple years ago I timed the qualifying portion of the Outlaw program at Eldora and I think it was just a little over 20mins and that was with a little clean up included, which in the grand scheme of things is not that much time to setup the program.

Inverts are fine but it still will not solve the front row winners as the original poster brought up. Here in Ohio I have seen FAST shows where they invert the field, driver was on the front row of the heat, won it, drew front row of the feature and won it. I sometimes wonder if the people are actually watching the race or are they just looking at results or race monitor.

Like your advice though. Some people do get burnt out especially if they have specific expectations. In Ohio, after the Waynesfield FAST show on Oct 12th, most likely we will not have another show until end of March and that most likely will be rained out. By then the race could be follow the leader with no passing and with not seeing a race for 6mo it will seem like the best race in a while.

Don’t disagree fixx. Initial post sparked my interest, so I just wanted to research starting spots of sanctioned race winners this year in central Pa. One of the best races(battles) I recall  is a WoO race from mid to late 2000‘s (memory a bit foggy on specifics) between The King and Montieth. Went on for laps and it was a fight for 10th place.

Really just trying for some friendly debate here. This all started at Lernerville in July. Some old racin buddies told me they just got back from 3 nights of  Indiana Speedweek where they said they saw a lot of racing as USAC inverts the top 6 - as opposed to that night when there may have been one pass for the lead in a heat and David Gravel wired the feature. After paying attention, it happens a lot. 

This is scientific:

WoO from/including Knoxville to now. And going by some posts, this doesn't tell the whole story (the whole year)  but it does tell the story since Knoxville as one poster suggested.

18 races

7 won from the pole

14 won from the front row (includes pole)

So maybe it's not 80% from the pole, but it's 77.7% from the front row.  And I think if you analyzed the All Stars and local races, you'd have similar results.

and yep, I do remember many, many times when they'd invert the top 6 and Steve Kinser could magically qualify sixth - or wherever to magically start in the front.

So I'm just sayin when you step back and look, there's not a whole bunch of passing for the lead.

And, jus so you know, despite the bitchin,  I'd probably still be the first one at the gate if not for other commitments - and the 200 miles that didn't seem that far 30 years ago.

Have a nice day!

" just got back from 3 nights of  Indiana Speedweek where they said they saw a lot of racing as USAC inverts the top 6"

Thats why I prefer wingless cars on a bullring. When I was driving from Colorado to the East Coast & back every summer, I would time it to hit races in the Hoosier State. Now that I relocated East, its a special trip & I haven't been for a while. 
Eastern Storm is good, but its mostly big tracks & low car counts, everybody makes the feature (make heats less meaningful) Also less guys in overalls & John Deere hats...

"The whole point of racing is to be faster than the rest & beat them to them all to the  checkers"??? Not the WHOLE point... part of it is entertainment. Follow the leader isn't very entertaining to some of us....

Back when I started going to dirt track, early 60s, it was modified coupes (or "jalopies") at Eastside Speedway in Waynesboro, Va. They put the season points leader all the way in the back. Believe it or not, Smokey Stover won 22 out of 24 races in 1962, almost all from the back. Needless to say, the cars were all very different, homebuilt hotrods, unlike todays cars. It was really exciting... all the fans were either pro or anti Smokey, probably like it was with Fast Freddy in Pa.

There's a self published book about Shenandoah Valley dirt tracks, & it claims Smokey came up to Williams Grove one time & kicked ass. I tried to research it at EMMR, couldn't find a mention of his name....but some of the old timers there heard of him....he raced occasionally at Winchester or Hagerstown too

Uhm, I'm pretty sure that's what I said .....

I know you said it. I don't completely agree...

I said the whole point to racing is to be faster and win. I didn't say the whole point of watching. I also said the same as you, I don't like to watch follow the leader, just like you said. So where don't you agree, because I like to watch the same type of racing you do ....

OK, I see your distinction between racing & watching... lets not quibble!

But we seem to disagree about inverts

It's all good man !! I'm not even tripping .... This is a great thread and it's a nice change from the norm here on HH. Usually it's people bashing each other for one reason or the other. Won't be long and we won't have much to discuss till next race season. 

I think this is mostly about optics and how things look when you look at the stats versus the competition on the course. As you said USAC inverts the top 6 but when I went back to look at the stats this year for the USAC Sprint Series, I show 29 total events ran this year so far. So this kinda skews the numbers when you compare the Outlaws who run 60+ races to this point. Of the 29 races run 5 have been won from the pole and 9 others have been won from 2nd with some of those winners leading a majority of the laps. That would be a total of 14 races won from the front row so 48% have been won from the front row. Adding to that, 5 additional races have been won from the 2nd row so 65.5% from the front 2 rows, and the average starting position for USAC this year is 3.75 (Skewed a little by Shane Cottle's 18th to 1st at I-69).

I think some people see no invert + some races won from the pole or front row and automatically think this = bad racing because there is not passing. Consequently some people see invert + some races won from 5th or 6th and think that all races are like this.

I went back and did a quick eye test from some of the same tracks the Outlaws visited back in 2012-2013 as well as this year. Sure enough, with an invert of the top 16 qualifiers in the heat races, drivers who started on the pole or the front couple of spots won the race. With that I would say that the invert has limited impact as to how much passing is done for the lead or for the quality of the race for that matter, but it did have more of an impact of who may have won instead. Looking at the heat races in some of those events back then, the fast qualifier started 4th and finished around 3rd or 4th.

I think with the equipment today and the drivers if you put the ones who are close in qualifying, give them the opportunity to move up through the heats, work on the cars, the racing is actually closer and more competitive.

Bingo... Today's competition so much closer than it was 20, 15, even 5 years ago. The split from the best car to the 16th best car is so much tighter. With competition this close and clean air being so important it makes zero sense to do an invert prior to heat races. I think the current format is perfect. Theres basically a random invert when they redraw for dash starting spots.

Lets face it, there's no perfect format unless you could line them all up side by side, & that would require a track so wide that the outside lane would be way longer than the inside (diagonal starting line like track & field? that would really be goofy!)

Its probably good that different sanctions & tracks have different formats. I like Chili Bowl & Allstar systems myself. My biggest gripe is USAC, where everybody gets their qualifying time back, except that top 6 have to qualify thru heats. But in an event like Eastern Storm where everybody qualifies, it renders heats damn near meaningless...

18 races is not enough to declare a trend.......especially in what have been some very wet, heavy tracks

Agreed. A few more threads like this and a few less threads about "slip n slides" or "broke dick drivers" and this forum may have a decent reputation among the sprint car community instead of people within the sport discounting it as a cesspool of ignorance and idiocy like they do now. You never know, we may even get some posts from actual drivers, owners, crew chiefs, officials etc. I still sometimes wonder why Johnny Gibson even bothers posting here but I'm damn glad he does.

 "cesspool of ignorance and idiocracy".... teehee

Actually I think the word should be "idiocy"....."idiocracy" means government by idiots

No comment on that...

Yeah I know the difference. My phone is really good at replacing words I type with other similar words. It's way smarter than me, but I definitely know the difference LOL. Thanks for picking that out. I fixed it.

I've been to around 40 races this year,   The two most entertaining have been the Front Row Challange when Brady Bacon and Kevin Thomas Jr opted to start in the rear.  Bacon last to first in 13 laps.  The second one was when Danny Deitrich took the challenge to start 18 at Port.  The thing with both of thoes fields is there were not a full field of very compitive cars like an WOO or All-Star event.  Another memorable race was World Finals a couple of years ago when Donny spun out early and charged all the way back to 2nd.  I think with todays formats the lend to good racing most of the time and when you do have that rare ocassion when someone makes a charge from the back it makes it more memorable, than if they were starting back there all the time.

Bottom line is I'll be at the Grove camping having a good time, Sure I hope its not follow the leader, but no matter what it will be a great weekend with friends and racing!

One of the many reasons I don't have a Smartphone....