Forum: Oklahomatidbits.com General Forum (go)
Moderators:  /  David Smith Jr

I've been going to the races since I can remember. Friday night was the first time that I can remember that a flag man in my opinion put some race car drivers in danger. Several times throughout the night the flag man waited wayyy to long to throw the yellow and drivers could have been injured. On several instances drivers were turned around on the bottom apron or sitting on the marbles at the top of the track and still the flag man let them run. I want to hear some thoughts on this subject?

Nah, Friday night was a much better night than usual. Drivers are usually stuck sitting in the middle groove turned around head on, right on the exit of the turn having to wait for an opening to get turned back around (if ones comes) or pray they will actually get a yellow. I've seen many cars in that situation for 3 or more laps. I've also seen many cars get hit in that situation, luckily it wasn't a direct head on, the other driver did try to avoid but still got collected.

This is an example of where the radios COULD be helpful (Exception to sprint cars because of direct drive). Notify drivers car spun in turn 2 exit (or whatever) be aware. I know when ASCS uses a flag everyone knows on the radio. When they throw the yellow or red, it's not just the flag, it's the flag, the light and the radio.

Here is how I see it. Those drivers come out there to race and put on a show. I understand all of the cars regardless whether its a sprint or a factory stock cost alot of money. The track officials are not only putting the race cars in harms way, but also the drivers lives. On two or more instances the other night, the track officials had people on the bottom apron, and they still let the cars run for the rest of the race without throwing the yellow. To me as a fan, and soon to be driver, I feel that this needs to be taken care of immediately. I understand some guys are doing it to get back in the race, but there are some instances like was brought up before where you can't find a hole to get turned around in. So therefore, the track needs to take care of this problem promptly. I mean thats my 2 cents.

you know i dont think its that hard to have fun and be careful out there. what does it take to be careful---- a little common sence. Well i guess i just dont have enough guts to jump out there in front of those cars and i dont wait for somone to get hurt before i act. Last year i had the flagman at the city get onto me because i turned on my overhead lights before he turned on the yellow. So i guess i just favor keeping people safe over a time limit. I have never been to Lawton but i guess it shows that if they are having the same problems at two diffrent tracks run by the same guy then that shows what he thinks of safty. Not much at all. And as for the flagman. Well think what u want but i think its time for some new ones who dont favor drivers. But i guess its kinda like the rules. No enforcement.

Dont get mad at me, im just the pushtruck guy.


www.myspace.com/pushtruckguy

can't say I disagree with any of you, but you guys are blaming the flag man. See the flag man wears a headset.........who do ya'll think chimes in on that headset all the time? It has not been at the flagman's discretion for some time on when to throw a yellow...........he's just listening to the boss. In any of those instances if he does throw the yellow he knows he will be told not to come back and flag any more shows. . I'm just sayin fellas..........it's not the flagman's fault..........he's just takin orders......................Lanny worries a whole lot more about cautions and the time it takes to get each race in wayyyyyy more than the flag man does.

Whats's disconcerting is all the fans in the stands that appreciate the lack of yellow's and ignore the danger it puts the drivers in. That may not be the best way to put it..........but if the flag man was allowed to throw the yellow every time he should there would be more people bitchin then than there are now. I want to make it clear I personally see the drivers safety as the most important issue..........it's just sad that some people are more worried about their plans afterwards or gettin home early that they don't give any clout to drivers safety. I kinda think Lanny knows that and is kinda capitalizing on it.............thats the only reason I can think of why Lanny treats cautions the way he does.

JMO

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

LOL...He'll never change. The only fans that enjoy that are the idiot adults, and of course little kids. The little kids I understand, since they really don't comprehend the danger the drivers are facing. I know, my son thinks the wrecks are cool, and we are teaching him that the wrecks aren't cool and that the driver can get hurt. The adults that enjoy it....they just have issues.

Christina
Air Max HVAC Systems

Be sure to never race Motorcycles, they may show a yellow flag, but the racing continues under caution. Same at the Tulsa Shootout for the Karts and Quads, racing under yellow continues.

Standing Yellow not waving indicates a rider has stopped on the track, but is not in the racing line.

Waving Yellow indicates a rider has stopped and is in the racing line and you will have to move to avoid the

stopped rider. Passing is not allowed between waving yellow and the crash, unless riders have commited their racing line on first seeing the incident.

The keep racing unless the rider appears to be injured and cannot clear the track. In my brief 30 year history of working in motorsports, I do not recall many incidents involving caution laps.

I will say the race continues with no dealy and the racefans sure enjoy going home before 10pm rather than sit through countless caution laps. If you insist on Caution Laps, then

at least count those laps as part of the race and put it to bed in around the same amount of time it would

of taken normally under green.

Amp, when sprint cars stop they can't restart themselves. Motorcycles are lighter and riders can bail. Also there are very few fires with motorcycles. In a sprint or modified (or any other car with a starter that won't start for some reason) race they have to have yellows. If someone gets hit while just sitting there, there will be a lot of torn up race cars. Torn up race cars = cars that will not return. They used to keep racing even if someone crashed, but people were getting hurt. Fire and just getting hit were the biggest reasons. I'm pretty sure that at the big Hutch fire they stopped the cars and still couldn't get there in time to contain the fire. Also how can we count the yellow laps as green laps when our heats are only 8 laps? Yellow flags and pace laps are part of dirt racing tradition now. Everyone does it for a reason, not just because we want to, but because it's safe.

What I'm saying with that horribly written paragraph up there is that what we do is dangerous, and I have been left in a dangerous spot before. It was not fun, and I got very lucky that no one hit me. I agree that if anyone is in any danger there should be a yellow thrown, even if they are off the track. To me this all goes full circle with the not wanting to tech anyone deal. He just wants to get the show over with as little effort as possible and go home.

 Everyone makes a good point and it sounds like everyone is agreed on the subject both at SFS and Lawton... so isnt this what you have drivers associations for? The ORA and LSRA should be all over this, and i mean this week, today, not in some future meeting. Safety can't wait in my opinion.

Got to remember the Noise Curfew at SFS is 10pm according to the hierarchy in the front office. Others say it is 11pm, but my contracts state 10pm. Those are from 2004, 2005 and 2006. I was told by management that we were not allowed to start a race after 10pm, and the track lights would be turned off following our last race or at curfew whichever occured first.

Which ever, it is at a given time, it is still a curfew and must be honored or SFS will end up like Tulsa Speedway #2 which was the 3/4 mile raceway at the Expo Square. They got evicted via fiat off County property due to noise curfew time and sound infringments.

For clarification: Tulsa Speedway #1 being the 3/8 mile speedway where the parking lot for Big Splash sits now and #3 being the defunct Tulsa Speedway at 66th Street North and Plowed Ground. #2 at the current location at Expo Square.

I have heard the motorcycle / car argument before about moving and such, and I agree with all the safety belts, restraints, side impact bars, special molded seats, hans devices and a gamet of safety devices, the drivers have little chance of exiting the vehicle on their own on most cases. That goes back to the Law of Unintended Consequences but that is another story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence

In any case I would think Indoor racing including Arenacross, Supercross, Short Track and TT would be under caution according to Auto Dirt Track rules as there are objects and obstacles to come into contact with at all times, especially the outer walls of the building.

Most people I have taken to car dirt tratrack races that started out watching motorcycle races can not understand the caution being thrown for a stalled car that sticks their nose onto the straight after spinning out into the infield. In my opinion that racer should get back into the race on their own with no caution or delay in the racing action. Cautions cause ticket buyers not to return in many cases.

Especially when the stalled vehicle suddenly like magic starts under its own power just the second the yellow light comes on. Or a driver sticking the nose of a vehicle onto the track. Chili Bowl crew moves stalled cars off the track in record time and they do not delay the program but for a couple of minutes in most cases. They haul ass cleaning up an incident, to keep the entertainment factor intact..

In Road Racing if your vehicle is involved in an incident, you must report back to TECH to be reinspected for safety conditions. You are not allowed to re-enter the race or travel on the racing surface. Of course every vehicle and helmet is inspected at TECH prior to the race. This also requires participants to arrive and start the TECH inspection 2.5 hours prior to practice/qualifying opening time. That would vary depending on the average number of participants and the number of TECH inspectors on hand.

Road Racing uses a Flag called a Meat Ball that is Black with an Orange Ball in the middle. This flag is used for signaling racers that there may be a mechanical problem with their vehicle. It indicates to the racer to exit the track and report to TECH, which can be on Hot Pit Road, or in the Infield where ever it is designated for each different track. Once the vehicle has been inspected and approved it can re-enter the race. Making those types of inspections on the race surface while holding up the program in my opinion tells your spectators you do not respect their time. And this is not entertainment it is more of a local club race. By using the Meat Ball flag, you avoid many lengthy time delays that could eaisly of been avoided just by removing an errant machine off the racing surface.

Black Flag indicates to LEAVE the Racing Surface at the nearest safe place. Or in other words pull off the track now. No vehicles is allowed to continue racing if emitting smoke from the engine or other components. No vehicles are allowed to continue racing without a muffler or with any loose components hanging from the machine.

At the Heart Of Texas Speedway in Waco, Texas they run a fast pace program with lots of entries and they get it on. No delays and wasted cautions. They wink the green if a car spins into the infield and is making it's way back onto the speedway. They flash the yelllow with the green on for a vehicle that is stopped off of the racing surface but is still on the track. If they do bring out a full caution, their restarts are double row with the leader single in front so the racers in the back are not penalized by the incident.

Back in the day when there were fewer entries I believe is when the Qualifying Heat Races, Caution Laps not counted and 50 lap A Features were used as the tracks only ran 1 or 2 classes of vehicles.

Due to the lower number of classes and entries something had to be done to extend the program to 1.5 to 2 hours so the race fans would feel they got around the same amount of entertainment as a 1.5 2 hour movie.

Today the heat races may not be needed.. In Road Racing they run sprint races that are 8 laps and the starting grids are based on point averages. New entry goes to the rear and the high points average racer starts on the pole. We run 20 8 Lap Sprint Races in one day with up to 60 racers in each race. We average 600 entries at each event.

I always liked timed qualifying. Back in the day when only stop watches or a single light beam timer was used, only two vehicles at a time could occupy the track for qualifying. Today with AMB Transponders, qualifying is done during 3 Hot Lap Sessions. Makes it simple to prepare starting Grids based on qualifying times. Weeds out the slower vehicles by eliminating a waste of time heat race and speeds up the program. Leaving lots of time for 30 to 50 lap Features, and caution laps. Believe that is how NASCAR does it, however they do count Caution Laps.

I would think if a track owner/promoter is getting all of or a piece of the profit at the concession stand, their program will always run right up to the Curfew time.

All that typing and in BOLD Black print on top of that, WOW!

So let me get this straight...You are in favour of getting someone hurt to run the show faster? No one ever said that SFS wasn't getting their show run efficiently. Have you ever crashed a sprint car? Even the lightest hit hurts like hell sometimes, and there is always the chance of someone hurting their neck or back. To me it's just smart to throw the yellow, run 2 laps of caution and restart the race.

weeding out slower cars. The best and fastest were once slower cars. Dirt track racing isnt the same with out some sort of heat race. As a driver I wanna race the heat,and then race the A main, and if I could, race the b main just becouse I like turning laps! Racer safety should come before anything else.It does suck that a car spins, it couldnt start,then that yellow comes out and the car is now able to start. Letting any car sit in the middle of the track is bad while a field is coming at the car, to me its waiting to get somebody hurt. Its a fine line that has to be walked between getting the show in in a timely manner and not putting somebody's life on the line.

Curfew is 10:30 PM but they will stretch it til 11:00 PM with possible fines anytime thereafter 11:00 PM. This was per Shane Carson several years ago and I think he would know better than any of us posting on this subject.

A two-spin rule would cut out some of this. No bigger than the field of cars for each divisions "A" feature, I don't see why a driver thinks he can't hurry and restart at and get back to racing. He would still obtain a good finishing position and chances are, you screw up and do spin to a stop, your not going to be fast enough to win the race anyways

This exception, of course, is the sprint cars because when they spin, they ain't going nowhere.

Time trails are for the big boys and will lose your fans on a weekly basis as they too will grow tired of it. Like it or not, the average fan, especially with kids, are there to see the wrecks and the spills. I would like the think the race fan knows better.

David Smith Jr.
www.oklahomatidbits.com

I miss the 3 on 1 off schedule. But then I also miss the 1/4 mile,but thats a different topic! :)

LOL jd.

Cheese I completely agree with you. I got to thinkin last night that at some other track (Cowtown for instance) instead of throwing the yellow right away they do both green and yellow on the lights.......and then if the wreck or spin remains on the track they throw a yellow with red on the lights. When it comes to sprint cars since they have no starters the moment one stops a yellow should be thrown. Bout the only time i think a yellow doesn't need to be thrown is if a car is way out on the half mile.......but it is ridiculous to leave cars sittin down in turn 4 by the wall..........thats what happened friday.

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

Believe you missed my point on the Time Trials. They are done as the Hot Laps are being run. Not a separate deal that takes lots of time. Takes the exact amount of time to run one session of hot laps and clock every entry as it does and not clock them.

The timers are on each individual vehicle and are running constantly. Timing each and every lap during hot lap sessions. Quick times sit on the first row, and on back.

Mike Kidd used the AMB Transponders Qualifying method for years with the FUSA events. Made the program run a hour quicker.

Speaking of Back in the Day and when Tulsa Speedway had over 12,000 in the stands. Check out the Flag Rule lower bottom right corner. I will take another photo of the compete rule today if I have time.

Green = Clear Track Race

Yellow = Race with Caution, but.....

I assume it does not say slow down and reform for a restart.

http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w162/ampracing10/Tulsa%20Speedway/?action=view&current=PICT1988.jpg

Yoiu can run the non-qualifiers in a special Bracket race and award them a trophy and a title. Some call it a Last Chance Qualifier, others a Loosers Race. 

 Then run a B Feature of qualifiers and take X number to the A Feature.

Or you can run a 1/2 dozen heat races with cautions and reds and restarts. 

Most motorsports organizations I work with today use AMB Transponders and qualify who makes it into the event.  AMA GNC only takes the top 40 or so out of 100 entries at a National, everyone else becomes a spectator or starts their drive home early.

Guess it would make Hot Laps mean something then,make you start taking chances early in the night to set quick time, AMP you should take all these ideas to Mr. Edwards and let him in on all this wisdom and ideas you have, just video tape the response so we could all see it and play it over and over and over and watch him spontaneously combust with his response over and over and over.

HAHAHAHA That's funny JD. To be honest, I don't like any of the ideas. There is not enough racing involved for the drivers or the fans. The only thing I think that needs to be different is more yellow flags thrown. Why would we change oval dirt track racing tradition to get the races over 30 minutes earlier. It just makes no sense to me, if you can't stand being there until 10:30 then you are probably too old to come. It is Friday night. If you want to leave so bad pick up your walker, leave early, and let everyone else enjoy the whole race.