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March 30, 2017 at
09:22:47 AM
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Reply to:
I would imagine that the reason more cars come out to "time trial" shows in PA is because those are the ones that almost always pay more money. When does PA have time trial shows? Speedweek races, ASCoC races, WoO shows, and bigger paying events like the Tuscarora 50 and others of that ilk.
I don't think it's the actual time trialing, its the purses associated with time trial races.
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March 30, 2017 at
11:10:56 AM
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Hate to tell you, but the Groves stands are always half full for regular friday night show..
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March 30, 2017 at
11:43:57 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: bigbrad115 on March 29 2017 at 09:41:58 PM
I've followed this thread and heard everything as to why car counts are in the toilet. But I didn't read one thing about the cost of an engine. At the cost of close to or over $60,000, how can ANYONE afford a 410 engine? That is the rule package that needs addressed. As long as the "Monkey See, Monkey Do" mind set of doing what the WoO does continues, Cental Pa. 410 sprint car racing will continue to decline. The WoO doesn't care about the weekly racing at the three 410 tracks in Central Pa. I feel that the tracks need to get together with one another and engine builders and try to come up with a 410 engine package that is less painful to the bank account and can be raced longer between re-builds. I'm confident that the engine builders have the know how and technology to come up with exactly that type of powerplant.
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We already have that. It is called 360s, 358s & 305s. It is also hard to police.
It is a lot easier to make sure a square drops over a 100"x13" RR at the scales, put an angle finder on a non-adj wing, and drop a plumb bob on the scales and make sure the rear of the foil is in front of the rear axle.
SOD is unlimited. The late models are unlimited. Unlimited is way cheaper than trying to force 1000 hp out of a 410. Race fans like unlimited. They like all the studs from all the different classes racing together in one class. They like a few low buck heroes to root for.
Blow hard prima donnas are the only thing standing in the way.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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March 30, 2017 at
12:32:49 PM
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Did a bit of research on the cost - a rather exhaustive google :)
There is quite a bit of merit to the cost argument. Me thinks the best motors in the early/mid 80's were $18,000 ish
Cummulative inflation since, like 84, makes that $18k motor now $44,000. If one could run up front consistently these days with a $44,000 motor, then the chances of "another long year" would be much less. And, I'm sure the same math applies to all the not-so-other stuff like tires, fuel, tow truck and trailer (remember when Crew Cab Duallys and Chapparral trailers were king?)
And, Grove stands half full for a weekly race is indeed kinda' eerie, but the place is big - and they sure ain't half full when the big dogs come to town - and, to be sure, the tickets are $30 each :) Frankly, I still prefer the weekly show that struggles to have a B Main on too many nights with half full stands.
AND, while still undecided, I'm leaning towards Mr.McCarl over Cubic...probably going with Mr. McCarl :)
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March 30, 2017 at
12:48:18 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: Johnny Utah on March 30 2017 at 09:22:47 AM
I would imagine that the reason more cars come out to "time trial" shows in PA is because those are the ones that almost always pay more money. When does PA have time trial shows? Speedweek races, ASCoC races, WoO shows, and bigger paying events like the Tuscarora 50 and others of that ilk.
I don't think it's the actual time trialing, its the purses associated with time trial races.
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Bingo Johnny.
I'd add that with support divisions, running time trials every week would lengthen the program and evening. Also not sure how "fair" (or if that even comes into play) it would be to have weekly TT for 410s but not other divisions (yes I know most other divisions do not use TT in any form or race, just saying). Another factor is local guys would not like the added beating on motors to run TT every single week. Special shows a handful of times a year? Sure. TTs every week. Logistically it's a challenge for the track.
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March 30, 2017 at
01:38:21 PM
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Motor costs definitely are an issue but from a fans perspective all but the hard core could care less about motor costs and purses. They know how much money it costs to get the family in and how many treats the kids will want. Hard core fans lose sight of the perspective of casual fans that make up a large part of the crowd.
Stan Meissner
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March 30, 2017 at
01:42:26 PM
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Posted By: longtimefan on March 29 2017 at 12:13:01 PM
You don't have car guys anymore because guys can't work on their own car anymore. A guy may be able to build his own race car even build his own engine but cars have evolved (intentionally by car builders) to the point where he can't work on his family car.
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Exactly.... used to work on my Ford Econoline all the time. Now I have a Focus.... shop wanted $300 to change fuel filter.... WHAT??? Used to be a little 3 inch cylinder on line to carb, 2 scews. Now its buried in fuel tank. Same with air cleaner, its some crazy gizmo instead of easily replacable unit
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March 30, 2017 at
02:47:09 PM
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Posted By: cubicdollars on March 30 2017 at 11:43:57 AM
We already have that. It is called 360s, 358s & 305s. It is also hard to police.
It is a lot easier to make sure a square drops over a 100"x13" RR at the scales, put an angle finder on a non-adj wing, and drop a plumb bob on the scales and make sure the rear of the foil is in front of the rear axle.
SOD is unlimited. The late models are unlimited. Unlimited is way cheaper than trying to force 1000 hp out of a 410. Race fans like unlimited. They like all the studs from all the different classes racing together in one class. They like a few low buck heroes to root for.
Blow hard prima donnas are the only thing standing in the way.
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I'm sure narrower and shorter tires do not make 305s faster. So you must want to slow the others down enough so the 305s can run with them. If I'm going to watch sprint cars run 18 second laps in time trials at Knoxville I'd just prefer to watch non wing cars.
Brian Birkhofer retired from racing late model because they are too expensive. So I guess following the late model example will some how save sprint car racing.
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March 30, 2017 at
02:48:39 PM
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Posted By: longtimefan on March 29 2017 at 08:44:39 PM
So far we have Stroup to run Port this week I think Taylor is supposed to start this week, Heimbach has said his season will begin April 8 at Port. I am not sure about others but there will be others. The sky is always falling in Chicken Little's world.
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Great news on Stroup if it's true.
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March 30, 2017 at
04:17:07 PM
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Visitors to forums like this one are hard core. Probably over 50% of the fans on any given night are casual and chose a night of racing over a ton of other options. They don't care about purses or motor costs, they just know that there used to be 40 cars and now there are 16. Their choice next week could be an amusement park if they don't feel like they got their money's worth. That is the problem and what I mean by going point. That 100 hard core fans worried about motors and purses will be there regardless. The casual fans might not be.
Stan Meissner
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March 30, 2017 at
04:52:52 PM
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Posted By: StanM on March 30 2017 at 04:17:07 PM
Visitors to forums like this one are hard core. Probably over 50% of the fans on any given night are casual and chose a night of racing over a ton of other options. They don't care about purses or motor costs, they just know that there used to be 40 cars and now there are 16. Their choice next week could be an amusement park if they don't feel like they got their money's worth. That is the problem and what I mean by going point. That 100 hard core fans worried about motors and purses will be there regardless. The casual fans might not be.
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(Sarcasm) REAL RACE FANS want the fastest cars no matter what it costs!!! You must be a looser!!! (/end sarcasm)
When local racing divorces "big-time, take it to next level, unlimited budget, hero worshipping, national series" racing local racing may flourish again.
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March 30, 2017 at
05:27:36 PM
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Posted By: Murphy on March 30 2017 at 04:52:52 PM
(Sarcasm) REAL RACE FANS want the fastest cars no matter what it costs!!! You must be a looser!!! (/end sarcasm)
When local racing divorces "big-time, take it to next level, unlimited budget, hero worshipping, national series" racing local racing may flourish again.
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Today's 305's are faster than the old cageless/wingless cars with the narrow tires and injector stacks sticking out of the hood that I watched as a kid. I'm glad that I didn't get that memo about the fastest or I wouldn't be lurking on here today. ;)
Stan Meissner
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March 30, 2017 at
05:37:55 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: StanM on March 30 2017 at 05:27:36 PM
Today's 305's are faster than the old cageless/wingless cars with the narrow tires and injector stacks sticking out of the hood that I watched as a kid. I'm glad that I didn't get that memo about the fastest or I wouldn't be lurking on here today. 
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So many of today's fans never saw those old cars and grew up with the fast winged cars. I doubt (jmo) that a lot of today's fans would pay the WoO ticket prices to see them running at the speed they are used to seeing 305s run.
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March 30, 2017 at
05:38:13 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: StanM on March 30 2017 at 05:27:36 PM
Today's 305's are faster than the old cageless/wingless cars with the narrow tires and injector stacks sticking out of the hood that I watched as a kid. I'm glad that I didn't get that memo about the fastest or I wouldn't be lurking on here today.
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Og geeze! , next you'll start reminiscing about drivers' skills being more important than the owners' wallets.
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March 30, 2017 at
05:42:11 PM
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Posted By: cubicdollars on March 29 2017 at 08:18:18 PM
It comes from common sense. If you are buying used tires off of someone you don't buy ones that are all cut and used up. You buy good ones and grind them. Yeah they blister easier if you don't cut them, but if NO ONE was allowed to cut them up, people would pay the price for driving like a nut and spinning them, and Schatz would still be winning and people would be the first in line to buy his used tires because they would look the best. A tire that you don't take a grooving iron to will last longer. If you were going to run a 100 lapper you wouldn't groove up a tire. It wouldn't make it. Common sense is a terrible thing to waste.
Just like common sense tells you if the late models can get away from sprint car tires and 3' high barge boards, the sprint cars can go to a smaller tire and a wing angle rule.
Is it ever going to happen? Hell no. There are way too many clowns like you. But it still doesn't mean it wouldn't solve a lot of problems. Changing little things doesn't do anything but cost money. You have to change enough to save money. The Goodyears at least slowed the progression down a little bit though. With the Hoosiers and all the other go faster rule changes everyone is having to buy new motors.
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So cubic says his knowledge comes from common sense. McCarl's comes from racing experience. Decades of it.
I think I'll stick with believing what Terry says!
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March 30, 2017 at
06:35:05 PM
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As much as I hate to say it. The racer is who is pricing themselves out of every form of racing. Does anyone no what that 55 gal of fuel cost. I personally no of a team that pd ridiculously hi prices per barrel and they were not the only ones. You rarely see a team BUYING track fuel. I talked to a major team owner that at 1 time told me what his costs were compared to mine and he said the FUN of racing was gone. But he kept right up there with Hamilton, Weikert, Dyer and a few others. I asked him how would you control costs. His comment was to make simple rules, 2 3/16 injection, 1 RR compound (at this time mostly all were on goodyears) and at that time everyone was starting the shock war. This particular owner did not follow the shock valving and got out. Afterwards he made the remark that no one out there is building there motors anymore and trailers have shock dyno's. He just shook his head and his comment still puts a smile on my face. "These dumb bastoods are out there just out spending the next guy and they think that will make them winners" He was and is right.
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March 30, 2017 at
10:36:06 PM
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I bought fuel for a 360 team during their Nationals from the Darnell oil truck in the infield the last 2 years. 2015 it was $3.90/gal. Last year I just gave them money for tires & fuel so I don't know how much it was then.
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March 30, 2017 at
10:36:46 PM
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That was at Knoxville of course.
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March 31, 2017 at
05:36:17 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: Murphy on March 30 2017 at 05:38:13 PM
Og geeze! , next you'll start reminiscing about drivers' skills being more important than the owners' wallets.
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I try not to think of the past much. There's a fine line between historian and dinosaur. ;)
Stan Meissner
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March 31, 2017 at
07:21:40 PM
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Posted By: oswald on March 30 2017 at 05:42:11 PM
So cubic says his knowledge comes from common sense. McCarl's comes from racing experience. Decades of it.
I think I'll stick with believing what Terry says!
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Sport has been dictated by the top dogs for 30 years with little regard for common sense. Kinser, etc, even fought weight rule tooth and nail. Common sense is what is missing most, concerning the RACING (put too big a hole in the air), SAFETY, COST, and the FANS (want to see top dogs from all division racing against each other + not just rich kids + cheaper unlimited engines) Common sense = win + win + win + win. Top dogs continuing to call the shots = lose + lose + lose + lose.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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