Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I haven't been to FRC for a few years, I thought they stopped cause nobody was accepting the challenge any more. Sounds like this one was wingless? (Bacon & KTJ?)

Yes wingless Powri

At my hometown track back in the early-mid 90's, if you finished 1st or 2nd in the feature, you started in back row the following week.  It was like this for every class.  There was a guy in the Late Models who had the latest and greatest of everything and an absolute beast for a motor.  His motor was 5x as expensive as any in the rest of the class. I was in my early-20's and, like a complete moron, I would think it was the coolest thing on the planet to watch this guy destroy the field by 1/2 of a lap from dead last every week. I wasn't alone.  He filled the stands with other morons like myself.  Why?  The best racing was from 2nd on back and that's what we could have seen if we wouldn't have been so mesmerzied by him.  

I am in agreement with others on here.  I would rather see the tight racing between equal cars than watch a superior car smash its way through the field.  

And the inverts?  Really no place for them except for events like Knoxville Nationals.  Even with the King's Royal they are useless.  Loved seeing Sammy get the pole BUT-----he didn't earn the pole or even a top 8 starting spot for that matter.  

Inverts for heats only work if there are points for qualifying time and/or passing points in the heats.  Otherwise, they are useless.  

Okay count me as one of those weirdos that actually likes to see lead changes and passing.

The WoO sprints and Lucas LM procedure that puts the fast timer on the pole of the heat SUCKS no 2 ways around that.

One BIG reason the Knoxville Nationals and K-Ville LM Nationals are so popular is they invert heats based on time and we actually see some PASSING and RACING in the heats and features, also the Dunkins are the best at producing a good, racey, multi grooved track that ALLOWS passing.

What would be so horrible if a traveling series like the WoO did some sort of inversion by points, f-k time trials boring waste of time.

I will start a thread about this later when time permits.....

The worst president of my lifetime:
Ronald Reagan

I guess I was one of those morons too, 30 years earlier & a different state... it was fun! :)

It takes a lot of driving skill to fight thru the pack, faster engine or not....

Cool. I'm sure I would have enjoyed it.... :)

I think everyone agrees with you about passing and lead changes.  The problem is, and I think this has been pointed out hundreds of times on this forum, the cars are too equal for the old systems that were in place decades back.  

I don't have issues with inversion by points as long as its done in heats and it is based on passing points and not finish positions. Setting the A purely by heat finish would be a bad system.   If you have 28-32 cars show up for weekly Outlaw show with a narrow track, the top 5 in points are in the Last Chance race with 4 of them tagging the field.  Maybe some of you would like to see that but that is far from fair.  

I still would like to see each car run 2 heats (shorten by 2 laps if needed), scrap time trials, and line up mains by positions and passing in heats.  Otherwise, the new Outlaw system is the only fair way to line em up----like it or not

JMO

The WoO format sucks, period. Go back the old way of the fast timers starting 4th in the heats. Ok so you're fast on an open track? Well then you should be able to pass 2 cars in 8 laps to make the dash. If not, tough shit. Work for it in the A main.

Marks winning after timing around 15th in his flight proves the point that penalizing guys for good time trialing is stupid. Inverts work at some places where you can actually pass, but not the Grove. 

BINGO!!!!!  You beat me to this one!

First off, congrats on the win to Brent.

However, if this, and Sammy's pole at the Royal don't end this argument, I don't know what is going to do it.  The King's Royal worked itself out as the track is extremely racy since Tony's changes.  The Grove was not like this last night.  These invert systems do not serve any purpose in a single-night show where the field is set from one night of racing.  The "if they're so fast, let them work their way through the A-main" is just plain dumb. 

I don't understand why anyone would want to time fast anywhere but on a regular Outlaw show or the Knoxville Nationals---where it actually pays off. 

Why would anyone want to time fast? To make the inversion. I doubt if anyone is sharp enough to "sandbag" the tenths or hundredths of seconds beteween 1st & 4th or 6th

This conversation has been had before.  You're not sandbagging to land 6th.  You're sandbagging to land 12th-20th----depending on the car count, if you have a 4 car invert.  

The object of the time trials are to time with in the top 16 that way you are gonna start in the top 4 of the heat which gives you a chance to race into the dash. You must be fast off the truck or very lucky in a heat race due to someone else's misfortune.

There was no inversion for Marks.  Normal WOO format fast time started first in heat.  Marks started 5th restarted 4th after Stutts had trouble and passed two cars to make the dash.  

How many times do we have to see this "the cars are too equal" bullcrap?

Last month at K-Ville LM Nats Jimmy Owens came from 18th to win, a few years back Donny Schatz won the B started 21st and won the A. If tracks are habitually a one groove POS we need to direct the blame to where the fault lies- bad track prep.

Curious what LM track that was where that guy won all the time was it Dubuque when Gary Webb won like 18 out of 20 races and the Nascar national championship for short tracks? Huset's had a similar situation circa 1993 when Lasoski in the Forbrook 5 won almost weekly from 16th starting spot with a LOT more horsepower then the Sioux Falls locals had. According to somebody on here a guy named Smokey in Virginia did the same thing in the 1960s at his local track. Would those races have been better if those guys all started on the front roww? Hell no!

Knoxville weekly show June 8, Brian Brown quick time, wins heat.Starts A in 2nd row, takes the lead on lap 3 and waves goodbye. I hope someone didn't have to get up on lap 13 to take a leak and missed the thrilling conclusion. This is "racing" in 2019.

For the last how many summers we see on racing websites tracks are closing because of a lack of attendance. I can see why. Time to think about entertaining the folks in the grandstands instead of catering to the racers or the track closings will continue. It doesn't seem to have affected the WoO and Lucas Oil series as of now as people will go to races to see the "big names". 

And what is so freaking horrible about a guy like Brent Marks 10th in the points winning a "big race"? Wasn't there but I think its cool that a guy that probably REALLY needs the 65,000 won it as opposed to Schatz, Sweet or Gravel taking another big money win.

Okay break out your artillery and blast me for posting this, and tell me how the same guys winning from the front row every race make you happy!

The worst president of my lifetime:
Ronald Reagan

1.  No one ever said Knoxville applied to what we're talking about.  Knoxville has proven time and time again---cars that are even slightly better, can find a way around slower cars.  So, drivers like Owens and Schatz, or any other team that nails the setup, can easily make spots up at Knoxville---especially in 50 and 100 lap races.  

2.  You are speaking of Gary Webb from the mid 90's- early 2000's.  Not Gary Webb in his later years---when the cars did indeed become more equal.   If I'm not mistaken, he drove for Moring Disposal when he dominated Dubuque, and that car was out of this world better than anything else that pulled into Dubuque Fairgrounds.  Yes, there were good ones, but that was one of the top cars in the country---not just at Dubuque on Sunday nights.  (I believe it won the World 100  1 or 2 times after Webb drove it)

3.  Was at the Knoxville show on June 8th and 9th.  Friday night was "meh" and Saturday night I thought was fantastic.  Gonna have that.  Nothing to do with 2019.  Has been like that forever.  

4.  Congrats to Brent Marks.  But I'm confused.  He drew pole for the Dash and won, then started front row and won.  You are happy about this in a thread where you are bashing winning from the front row and cars too equal?   I'm very, very confused.  Your points are going in all different directions.  Nothing wrong with Brent Marks winning at all.  It was from the front row, so I would think you would stick to the theme of your post, and bring up a different example in defending "the cars too equal bullcrap" since no one could get around him because the cars were----you know----too equal?

You’re missing the point. First he earned that daah draw but only because of the bad luck of others and a tremendous restart. He wasnt handed it by some dumb invert. Secondly, despite being the 30th or so best time trialer, he was good enough to win starting on the pole.

So if there are 20-30 cars who can win from the pole, why not reward the guy who was fastest rather than some guy who Times 16th?

Because it's not bullcrap that the cars are equal, that is why you hear it so many times. Last time I checked, a late model is not a Sprint car and it is 2019 not 1993 which was a completely different time & equipment. And tracks arent closing because of the racing format. They close because of poor management or lack of funds that attendance can't help. Not to mention from what I saw the stands looked just as packed at the Grove this year as years past. Every Outlaw show I have been to seems to grow in attendance so it just seems like this whole format bickering is for not. Drivers for 30+ years have won their heat from the front row & the feature, and this has happened multiple times throughout those decades at the Outlaw, regional, and local level. People just complain now because there is no invert & think that is the answer. It's not. It wasn't 10 years ago when the same people were complaining about the same thing with an invert.