Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

In case anyone thinks I'm bs'ing about the Bloomquist pic here is a link.  http://www.gotomn.com/Photos/StansClassics/01-scott-bloomquist.jpg

Stan Meissner

I think your count on super late models is way off.  They sure do not run in Iowa at weekly races.  Alot of late models in Iowa are IMCA and they are about 200 HP less than super late models.

I don't know about the rest of the country but here in the upper Midwest we've got 410's at Knoxville, that track in Brandon and River Cities.  The NSL based on their first season and the full Jackson/Knoxville schedule gets north of I90 once a year.  Aside from that there is the IRA 300+ miles in the other direction and some local 360 racing.

Late Models up here are along the lines of IMCA with limited motors and mostly WISSOTA.  The class that really seems to have caught on up here is the WISSOTA and USRA type Modifieds which are pretty close the IMCA with the offset driver area and spoiler.  Promoters up here seem to have a perception that Sprints slow the show down because of the push trucks and have gravited to those other classes.  Sprint racing is pretty much specials with the exception of a weekly limited motor non-wing UMSS class.  The winged 360's don't have a home track but can be seen most weekends without spending too much time looking out the windshield.

I don't see this changing up here.  Super Late Models are specials only but there are enough of the local guys who either have second cars or access to a big motor to keep them interesting. 

I think your estimate of the open Late Model numbers sounds pretty close to reality.

Stan Meissner

Put 2 bricks across across the back no need to change wheels, wings,or ???? .  All the big teams put new rubber on anyways so no big expence there.  Walk through with a durometer during staging and check them might take 3 min. Then check top 5 or so after feature might take 1 min. And yes i do own and drive a car I dont run up front but every tire in my trailer I got used. It would be a win-win situation tires last longer, motors last longer,and wouldnt need big HP to make it hook up because sometimes less is more. 900 HP= spin tires which means tire wear, 700HP= instant traction control, 900 HP is approx $50th, 700HP is approx $15-$25 and will last 8-10 times as long if not more

I think a wing angle could have a positive impact on the cost of the sport, but I think more importantly would be an education on how the wings work, and how that translates to lower costs, rather then just imposing the rule itself. I think most would agree that the angles that these guys are running their wings at is their motors worst enemy. The 900hp isn't necessarily needed to go faster, yeah I know, there's no replacement for displacement, and while that may be true, what's also true is that some of that 900hp is wasted by attempting to overcome the immense amount of drag created by the steep wing angle. That steep wing angle is not providing more lift, or as we call it, downforce. What that steep wing angle is providing, is load transfer to the rear wheels, which is creating traction, but doing so very in-efficiently due to that huge amount of drag being created. Traction can be acheived much more efficiently with shocks and bars. Thus the reason some will say that shock technology/costs are where the problem is. I personally disagree. I'm not saying there isn't a time and place for putting alot of wing in the car, like a dry, slick surface where you need traction and not necessarily downforce. That may be a strike against a wing angle rule in some peoples eyes. Damn, this is getting longer then I wanted it too.

Now, thinking of it in terms of load transfer, and not downforce, does it appear differently to some of you? I don't feel like these cars are too "hooked-up", rather too light in the front at the end of the straight. Because if it's the wing angle that's creating the load transfer, which equals traction at the rear wheels, then it's only being amplified as speed is increased. I think that most undertand that a lower wing angle will create less drag, but it can also create more downforce as the wings of today create the most downforce at a low angle. Which makes perfect sense. These guys are running thier wings at a 30 +/- degree angle, when the actual downforce numbers are best at half that angle. Yes, a lower wing angle can create more downforce.

My point is that yes, a wing angle rule can save money on engines because you will have a more efficient use of the power you have, thus allowing your motor to last longer. But NOT becuase it takes away downforce. Now, there's more to it, like how a steep wing angle also slows the car down on corner entry, but I'm not going there. Let's face it, nobody is going to intentionally buy an engine with 100 less hp, just because of a wing angle rule. Having said that, if you're forced to run a lower wing angle, and you still have 900hp, you may not be able to make the corner without boiling your brakes by lap 15. Sorry for the length. I'm done now.

One thing I've found over the years is that Late Model people are easily entertained. Not surprised at all that they found such racing to be satisfactory

I went and looked at this years knoxville Nationals night one. Shane Stewart won he Qualified at 15.442 and run a fast lap in the main at 16.370. Donny Schatz was fast timer and second in the race Qualified at 14.953 and ran a fast lap in the main at16.587. So between Qualifying and the Main the track slowed down a second to second and a half.

So the track has slowed down what do you do change? Gear, lower air pressure, run the wing back?

Run the wing back. HM what does this do? Does it give you more down force?. No, you are above the angle the wing works best for down force. It is now in the stalled position. Does it add drag down the straight? yes. So why move the wing back? Could it move the pressure point on the wing, back of the rear tires or moved the weight of the wing back of the rear tires ( read this somewhere ) more than giving move down force? yes.

So over the years why have we added more side board size to the wing? Are you getting more down force no. And put them where they are now? Wings car over on left rear loosens car in entry? yes. So what does this do for exit? Gives more pressure down on the left rear tire of the car. So what does this do? Tightens the car on exit? yes. 

Right rear more for side bite, left rear more for forwars bite.

Brad Doty brought up a good point on Wing Nation this week that there seem to be an abundance of Posse crew chiefs calling the "Schatz" behind the scenes on the Outlaw trail... Ricky Warner, Barry Jackson, Randy Wolfe, Lee Stauffer, Bobby Allen. Plus Steve Suchy helped build the Shane Stewart deal and Justin Adams works for KKR.

Plus he said they need to have a wing angle rule to unhook the cars and cure dirty air.

And they need to run a narrower LR tire. Plus go to a harder compound on both sides.

Well said Brad Doty

http://www.mrn.com/Media-Center/MRN-Show-Archives/Winged-Nation.aspx

Do the left rears really need to be any bigger than this or the wings stood up more?

No, it is just a waste of money and the racing is worse.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com