Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I would like to see us get back to engines like that.I believe the high compression is the biggest killer of the engines now.Current engines could be fitted with flat top or dish pistons which would bring comp. down and greatly help the lifespan of the engine,pistons don't cost that much.I've always thought a great package would be to follow rules along the 305 guidlines but with more cubic inches.A 400 built this way would run good and wouldn't cost anymore than a 305 engine.When you shop engine parts,pistons,rods,crank,cam dont cost anymore for a 400sbc than the same parts for a 305.

Two killers for engines.  Compression and RPM. 

The smaller the engine,  the more RPM needed to make HP. 

II say compression and  RPM limit... Or...A flanged collector with a restriction. (size to be determined) 

The current costs and longevity are not a logical 5 year plan let alone a 10 year plan. 

You are correct,the more power you try and get out of an engine the bigger a time bomb they become.I remember some yrs. ago one of the pavement stock car classes went to 9.1 comp ratio,at first alot of the teams bitched but they soon found that the engines lasted a long time and the racing was as good if not better, and cost came way down.

a 410 OWNER SAID HIS REBUILDS ARE $12,000 IF NOTHING IS BROKE.  YOU ALSO HAVE TO CONSIDER TRAVEL COST AND THE HIGH DOLLAR HAULERS THAT EVERY ONE THINKS THEY HAVE TO USE.

They need to be unlimited. There are a lot cheaper ways to make 1000 hp.

They need to run smaller rear tires like SOD is going to do.

They need to do away with wing adjusters and measure wing angle at the scales. All they did by going to a flat top wing is make them stand the wings up higher. Now dirty air is worse than ever. All they have to do is lower the wings to fix the problem and unhook them.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

The least expensive "fix" for $$$ racing is a weight limit with a "run whatcha brung" engine. Bring a supercharged 500 cubic inch all aluminum big block if you want...But with bricks on all four corners, you will be passed by a well set up 360 that will run 20 races without a refresh....

Look at ALL components and the entire hauler/trailer combination. A lot teams come in with full motor home with fully equiped, enclosed trailers as well. Total for hauler and trailers far exceed the cost of all race components! that was not the case in the 80's.

There is a lot more to setting a 1 lap record than the motor. Track prep, air temp and humidity for starters. Does Hagerstown run a weekly 410 show? Most 1 lap records at Knoxville were set by Saturday night regulars. 

And if it was all because of that awesome Mopar motor then how many other tracks does it still hold the 1 lap record at? The Grove? Knoxville? Eldora? You know, any of the tracks you need a real strong motor to be fast at?

all they have to do is put a $20,000.00 claim rule into effect, and teams will stop spending $50,000.00 on 410 motors. The teams will adapt of die!!

Claim rule did not work for street stocks or modifieds, and it would not work for sprints.

Rules just drive costs up look at ASCS motors, 2 barrel "spec" motors, and 305's. Sadly not everyone can afford to race, and most who do realize at some point you cannot apply any economic model to our sport. I am not a fan of the word "crate" motor but sealed crate motors slow down cheating and really do reduce costs (my IMCA friends are running more crates and fewer cheater motors and winning about the same). We had a promoter field a 410 crate motor and it was not far off the fastest cars I do not recall the cost. Most of the crate deals seem to focus on valve springs as the limiter which are easy to check, have you ever watched a track official try to figure CU IN when the motor is not 70 degrees two things happen tempers and temp are going up! So my vote is crate and no reason not to have Chev,Ford,Morpar,Toyota in the mix

No "crate motors", they are the death of the industry. I hate rev limiters, but they do a heck of a job. Limiting compression ratio helps too. Limit rod big ends to stock only, no Honda 1.88" bearings. No titanium. There's all sorts of ideas we could come up with, but they guys who know how to limit costs the best are engine builders. Parker, Ott, Kistler, Ryder, Gaerte, etc. Those guys know what constantly wears/breaks and if a rule were made eliminating that component or method of engine building then viola, you've got yourself a real live solution.

It has to be simple to monitor so sealed rev limiters that can have an external "drive" pluged in and create a run up of RPM.

Most of our grand kids could build a cheater box in a week or two, remember It is not the rule it is the enforcemnt. U really think there are not 440 ci motors, or when was the last time u saw them checking for restrictors in air stacks after a 360 race. I have never been to a ascs race where the top three were being inspected, If you want to live in danger claim the IMCA a mod winners motor two or three times a year. Have you ever taken a sledge hammer to a 360 block that needed another 010 to clean up o or five thou for that matter, why because I have never seen a offical leak down a hot 360 and win the argument.

The argument for crate motors centers around the enforcement of rules I do not own one, but if you want to level the field it seems like a good way to go. just look at the 305's they range from 7000-30,000 help me understand that   

Simple solution with one single rule ... WoO/series/tracks need to limit the number of engines a team can use/rebuild per year.

If (for example) it was 5 per year, then the motor builders would have to build motors that run 20 races.

Put the onus on the real experts (the engine builders).

  Sammy Swindell won the 1983 Knoxville Nationals with an engine my dad built at Blue Max.  While alot of parts and pieces were given to us by manufacturers he estimated the cost to build with all overhead figured in was $18,000.  It made a whopping 630 horsepower.

  Danny Lasoski won the 1998 Knoxville Nationals with one of our engines that made 790 horsepower and the price on that engine was $36,000.

  Shane Stewart ran 2nd at the Nationals in 2011 in Paul Silva's car with an engine he bought that was blown up from a guy in California that we pieced back together.  It made 920 horsepower and he had a total of $15,000 in it.

Do not hold your breath on this one.  This is a little far fetched.  Do you think engine builders want to build fewer engines?  I am sure all the engine builders are going to get together and plan thier demise.

No claim, No crate motors.   The 410's are what they are, leave them alone.  The 360's on the other hand should been engineered to have a compression rule of max 12.5 to 1.  .600" lift at the valves, no titanium valves.  Figure out a way to keep them below 600hp.  Using stock GM blocks and still being reliable.  The ASCS heads were nothing but a way for ASCS to make money off each set.  Go back to the gasket, bring back some ingenuity.  If you limit the valves to stainless only and lower the compression it makes the 8500-9000 rpm big bore short stroke engines to have not such an advantage.  A backyard guy could have a shop machine up an engine and be closer to being competitive.  Then you wouldnt have the 305's which werent needed anyway.  make it all 360's   That way the tech guy only checks, cubic inches, the gasket, compression ratio and valve lift.

I am a 410 owner with the best parts and Shaver Engines.  The 410 is what it should be, the pinnacle of Sprint Car racing.   No claims, no spec motors, no crate motors, etc.  It's expensive and should be.   It's the top tier of open wheel racing, especially now that Indy Cars have lost much of their relevance.  On the other hand, the 360 class and below would thrive with a compression and RPM rule.  

They would still rebuild their motors after 5 or 8 nights or whatever they want. A lot of teams use less than 5 motors a year anyway. 

Some great ideas here guys. But many involve owners buying  all new motors. Like a crate, spec, $20000 claim motors etc. How is having every team buy all new motors going to help owners? These ideas would simply run a LOT of owners out of sprint car racing. The fastest way to make racing more expensive is to make new rules to save teams money!