Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Finally someone posts the truth. Others say there have been good races at the Grove this year. It is track prep that is most important to having a good race. Knoxville almost always has a top & bottom groove, thanks to a great track prep crew.  But one owners car can't win from 4th and he wants to make changes to the tires size.

limit the angle of the top wing, take away wing slider, no wicker bill and harder tires. just my opinion and i know it doesn't count for much

if track prep was the only issue, then Knoxville wouldn't have been messing with the front wings last year to make for a better race.

That was a test because some drivers & officials did not think the same aero package should be used on big high speed tracks as little bullrings.

Knoxville is seldom willing to just accept the way things are. Always looking to make racing better. Schatz can come from 18th to 5th in the first 25 laps of the Nationals on the "too wide" tires but one owners car can't win from 4th and thinks tires need to be made narrower. Post a link to a report that says 100 top drivers agree tires need to be narrowed instead of just one Pa owner.

I've talked to a series of drivers — some in, some outside — Pa, and one common denominator in the discussion was the possibility of narrow tires. 

That being said, you won't get 100 drivers to agree. That doesn't happen. There are too many agendas. By the way, Parrish's car won from fourth. He said it was still boring.

As for Dewease, he is a pretty straight forward guy. Not an agenda guy. Worries about working on his car to try and make it better.

two words.... TRACK PREP. Why was I-55's race last Saturday one of the best races of the year??? Because the nailed the track prep. Track was in great shape. Successful track prep equals great racing, period.

Over the years I have seen great races with all sizes of tires & wings but can not recall ever seeing a great race on a real poorly prepped race track. The time when the Dunkins were not prepping Knoxville the racing was not as good. There is a reason they paid to get those guys back!

It was an eye-opener to some when they compared the right rear tire of a late model to that of a sprint car (at the World Finals).

The right rear tire of the late model is considerably smaller in circumference and width. The late model also weighs twice as much as a sprint car, but yet, uses half the tire.

At one time the late models had wedge bodies and plexiglas wings and sideboards all over them and they also used a big soft floppy right rear tire. When they finally outlawed the wedge bodies and went to the harder and smaller tire, the racing arguably got a whole lot better. Those who have been advocating for smaller and harder tires for sprint cars say that something could be learned from the late models.

I've had an ongoing argument/debate with a couple of drivers who want to solely blame the racetrack when, on occasion, the racing isn't what we hope it would be. If it weren't for the late model race, where they were passing, I'm sure those guys would still say it was the fault of the racetrack and that it "was too fast" and not slick enough for the sprint cars. But the argument goes right out the window when the late models were able to pass and put on a good race on the same racetrack. - Brad Doty

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Pubic hair you are one jealous trouble maker you have NO clue on any of the subjects your pretending to argue about!

Wrong 2 words........"Short Track"....that is the real key. Look at both Pevely and Haubstabt small high banked tracks that make you race and not have to have a killer motor. Do you think the Kuntz or Brady Bacon cars had motors close to an outlaw team, I seriously doubt it but they were both right there in the hunt by having a good handling car on a short track.

Give me a 1/4-3/8 mile track anyday for a good winged show.

The racing is always awesome at Attica/Fremont..........

While I agree that late models do show it's not always track prep, open engine rules and tire rules are hurting that class as well (go to a late model message board sometime and read the complaints about motors costing too much, tires costing too much and too many tire choices - even the competitors will talk about it in their press releases from time to time as to why they don't attend certain events  (the thing that people on here seem to think will fix everthing in sprint car racing)) as car counts are decreasing at the big races and weekly tracks because of it.

Are both forms (Sprints and Late Models) still relatively healthy overall?  Yes, but the days of weekly tracks having 40 cars just is no longer financially feasible for owners.  Team owners and drivers make financial decisions on where to race (well, track X usually gets 30 cars and of those 18 are really good and could win any night, track Y might be 150 miles farther away, but they only get 18 cars normally and only 3 are really good and could win any night.  Let's head to track Y so we can make more $$$) based on the return on investment.

Late Models changed the entire package to make their racing better (bodies, tires, eliminated wings and sideboards).  Sprint car fans (and team owners) seem to think that tires will be a "magic bullet" that will fix what they percieve to be the issue.  That ship sailed a long time ago as every rule change the past 10 years have made the cars more stuck down to the track (the wing changes, the tire changes, the shock changes, etc.).

In my opinion, if we want to loosen the cars up, the shocks have to change (give them 2-3 choices period, these adjustable shocks have made it so they can get the horsepower down no matter what the track conditions are), make the wings flat, no wickerbills, no wing sliders, and reduce the amount of sideboard square footage).  Tires - the big rule that needs to be implemented nationwide is one tire per night (if you have to choose before time trials your tire for the feature, are you going to choose soft, medium or hard tires?).  You save owners $$ because they aren't buying multiple tires, and you eliminate the need for hte soft compounds.  The WoO rule allows you to run a grand total of 15 laps before you can change your tire (TT, Heat and Dash) - it's no wonder they run soft tires as they don't have to last.  Add another 25-35 laps to that total and it changes that tire compound (and maybe eliminates rubber down or makes teams start to de-tune the engines since they can't get the tires hooked up).  It's a combination of everything though.  One won't work without policing the others as it will take the good teams maybe a month or two of racing to have a new way to hook the car up using the shocks and wings if you only change the tires.

What are you talking about Vande?  What is taking the wing slider out going to do? By the way, the wings are already flat. The cars are actually the most unhooked they've ever been. Wouldn't you want the cars more stuck for better racing? So guys can move around instead of being stuck on one lane. Your ramblings are so far off the mark 

Also, can I see what research was done to back any of your claims on your proposed changes? Or are we going to just implement them with no research like every other rule and cost the owners countless dollars? 

My point is that the thought that changing the tires to be narrower will be some "magic bullet" that will make the racing better is a pipe dream.  A couple years ago the culprit was supposedly cockpit adjustable shocks, then the wings that were dished, now it's the tires.

I personally think today's racing is 100X better than it was in the 1980's (stated that above).  But the powers that be and a bunch of keyboard jockey's seem to think it's horrible....

As far as taking away the wing slider.  This would make drivers have to adapt to their set-up (as opposed to moving the wing throughout the race when the track gets slicker).  All of a sudden a guy that set his wing at one angle and location can come on at the end of a race because the track came to him or the opposite could happen to a guy running up front and in the lead by a straightaway (which is what used to happen back in the day that everyone seems to long for).

The only thing I would change from the current WoO rules (and I believe PA follows the Outlaw rule for their weekly events) is this:

Tires - No changing of tires through the nights event.  The tire you Time Trial on must be ran in your heat, Dash (if their is one) and the feature (B-main cars can run a different tire for the B-main only and switch back to their Time Trail Tire if they transfer to the feature).

This rule costs car owners $0 (and may save some car owners quite a bit of $$).

Jeremy's column focused on the tire size being an issue (I'm not convinced it is), the point of my post was that changing one thing may have zero effect in the long run (too many other things they can use to adjust to make up for it).

You think unhooking the cars will make for worse racing???? In my opinion if you unhook the cars it'll make the cream rise to the top. 

Have you ever seen a wingless race? ....definitely not boring and more passing. 

Keep It Real

Talking to someone who works with an Outlaw team yesterday, they agree with you in one regard. Make a tire change and a wing change. But he also said that one of the two may work. The only way to know is if it is put in place and run for a while.

There is a side note to this as well and needs to be mentioned. Rules change so much, that it might be wise to just let things alone for 5 years and see how it is at the end of that time frame.

Yes I do.

Back in teh 80's (when the racing was supposedly so "good".  Knoxville was a run the top only track (and the cars were loose and un-hooked tremendously compared to today).  Until around 1995, Knoxville was still predominately a run the cushion track.

Rule changes, tire changes, etc. happened and stuck the cars harder to the track and all of a sudden there was a bottom and a top (and occassionally a middle).  IMO, the racing is better because the cars being stuck harder has allowed for multiple grooves.  If everyone is loose, it's going to be follow the leader around the cushion again.

I have seen wingless racing, and I agree it's not boring.  I would say the more passing depends (I've seen great ones and I've seen some that are like watching paint dry) greatly on race line-ups and track prep (gee, the same thing it matters on for winged racing).  Is it easier for a top driver/car to come from the back in non-wing compared to winged racing?  Yes, but I'd say there is a much wider gap for the Good Cars and everyone else in engines and equipment in non-wing racing whereas everyone in winged racing is running top of the line equipment (even the local racers).

If the tires are the problem how can the same basic group of cars & drivers running the same wings & tires at the same track put on a great show one week and a boring show the next? What can cause that? Track conditions (prep)???? Or has every race at the Grove been boring this season??? 

If you really want to loosen up sprint cars you can do it without any changes to tires. Just take the wings OFF!!!! Winged cars are going to be a lot more locked down, thats why they have a wing.